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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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mehulkamdar
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Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Damascus barrels made the traditional way
      #38569 - 02/10/05 12:55 PM

Please click on "Exclusive"

Brno's description of the process:

"The Damask barrels production method follows technology of ancient gunsmiths, i.e. welding and forging of ribbons of multi-layer steel and iron sheets. Thereafter, the ribbons are coiled around a mandrel to form a helix and welded on it in a monolithic Damask semi-product. The whole operation of this type is quite challenging as it consic of manual forge welding of steel and iron on fire. In the following step a special technological method modifies the Damask barrel blank into state of the art damask barrel. Such Damask type barrels are suitable for fitting on modern hunting firearms and for shooting with today's ammunition using smokeless powder. Each of the Damask barrels made here is a non-interchangeable original piece since manual procedures cannot make two identical barrels. Damask-barrel BRNO98 rifle is supplied with calibers equal to the standard models of BRNO98. The rifle can be even more tailored (hand-engraving, etc.), if required by the customer."

This is the old way and not the modern tecchnique used by Damasteel in Sweden and their associates Gobec in Austria.

Also, those who have access to the latest issue of Double Gun Journal, please read a comprehensive comparison of the strength of Damascus with Fluid Steel barrels where the Damascus barrels come out stronger.

I now know that there is a logical basis for my affection for Damascus barrels!


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #38718 - 04/10/05 02:24 PM

I don't know, it just didn't look right in a bolt action.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Oldsarge
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mickey]
      #38796 - 06/10/05 09:20 AM

I like the Damasteel but not the CZ. Probably it's the stock style that bothers me. I just can't get my head around the Schweinbruck handle. Probably too much Jack O'Connor in my childhood or something.

--------------------
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Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: Oldsarge]
      #38856 - 07/10/05 03:33 PM

Oldsarge,

I share your tastes. The metal looks really beautiful to my eye but the stock doesn't. I am sure, though, that the Brno company would happily make a straight stock for anyone who was ready to pay whatever it costs to get one made.

Mickey,

I do agree with you that a double would look infinitely better than a bolt with Damascus barrels. But then, Brno don't make doubles...

Good hunting, gentlemen!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #38920 - 09/10/05 09:15 PM

They make an O/U double. Just not the classic SxS.

BB

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: banzaibird]
      #39433 - 21/10/05 03:13 PM

Banzaibird,

Do they still make the 589? I was informed that they ahd stopped production some years ago...

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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banzaibird
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #39456 - 21/10/05 09:57 PM

If you follow the link above for BRNO click on "Arms" then "Brno 800" then on "Standard Version". If you now scrol to the bottom of the page you will see 5 rifle/rifle barrel choices.

BB

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: banzaibird]
      #39585 - 23/10/05 01:49 PM

Banzaibird,

Crazy of me not to explore the site further!

Thanks and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #39854 - 27/10/05 08:03 AM

Mehul,

Do you know anything about the prices for the Brno98?

Or the quality of these Brno made M98 actions compaired to others that are available?

Erik

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: EricD]
      #39948 - 28/10/05 02:52 PM

Erik,

The only thing that I know is that a member at AR tried importing one of these rifles and ran into trouble with the BATFE who seemed to think that since it was built on a Mauser action it was a military weapon. Apparently these rifles are made on military VZ 24 type actions and after the split in Czechoslovakia, a private concern bought the Brno name as well as the plant in Brno itself. The company itself is very poor in answering any e-mail sent to it, something that does not surprise me about any East European business.

If I remember right, New England Custom Guns offered actions from the Brno company some years ago and some cheap rifles with their Mauser actions bedded in plastic stocks were offered in the USA by someone else, but I have not heard of any of the Damascus guns being sold here with the exception of the one that I just told you about.

I'll try sending them another mail and hope that they reply this time. Wish me luck!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mhb
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Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 77
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40057 - 30/10/05 04:00 AM

I've looked at the BRNO site you provided a link to, and read the description of their process you provided. I'm not sure what they are actually doing, but it sounds like they are welding a damascus sleeve or chemise around a core of modern barrel steel: this would make a safe and useful barrel for modern cartridges, if properly done.
But, as a barrel maker whose associate in the enterprise is a metallurgical engineer, I have strong reservations about the suitability (read: strength) of any traditional damascus barrel with modern smokeless powders - it is a physical impossibility to make a composite of wrought iron and steel, with a structure based on a huge number of welds, (which may or may not be sound) which is as strong as homogenous steel.
The fact that damascus barreled shotguns can be smokeless proofed in Britain does not make me feel any better about the actual safety of such barrels: that any barrel passes such proof merely demonstrates that it could stand the stress ONCE. And, since few if any such barrels have been made in, probably, more than 75 years, virtually all existing damascus barrels are at least that old - they haven't improved with age. And even in shotguns, the average breech pressure with smokeless powders is at least twice that of blackpowder: every shot with smokeless loads is a proof load in a damascus barrel.
I've seen what happens to damascus barreled guns when they do fail: it isn't pretty, and in shotguns, they often fail at exactly the point where the shooter grasps the barrel(s), with the results you might expect.
And, really, damascus barrels are not even traditional in breechloading rifles at all. Just before his death, I was working with Lynton McKenzie (who was the Proofmaster at Birmingham) on re-boring some damascus muzzleloading barrels - damascus is not a good material for rifles if only because it is difficult to rifle with good dimensional control and surface finish (non-homogenous material), both of which factors are critical in making an accurate barrel. And who has any use for a rifle which is NOT accurate?
mhb - Mike

--------------------
Sancho! My armor!

Edited by mhb (02/11/05 01:59 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Damascus barrels made the traditional way [Re: mhb]
      #40436 - 02/11/05 06:18 PM

mhb,

You are very right. To a complete non expert like me, it is the beauty of the end product that brings visions of winning the Lotto in my dreams, for that is the only way I would be able to afford one of these rifles. If you make barrels like these, please post pictures of them over here. There is a detailed discussion of the process on another forum:

A response from the Internet Gun Club is here.

Quote:

This is the most striking modern damascus I have seen because of the gold and blue-black color contrast, rather than the intricate patterns of the best English and Belgian damascus of the late nineteenth century. However, I have little doubt that today's highly sophisticated knifemaker's have bested it, and perhaps BRNO even got their technique from one of them. If these guns are seen more widely, as at the indescribable and vast Safari Club International annual convention in Nevada, I would think they would sell like hotcakes.
Altho early Mantons show a coppery and black pattern similar to this, my guess for BRNO's technique to achieve gold striping would be that they etch the more carboned portions of the damascus twist with a combination of nitric and hydrochloric acid, old-time German style, to slightly recess these areas - and then copper plate the metal. They then gold plate the copper and then polish off the barrel's remaining raised surface, and blue it. The gold does not take the blueing. Then gently power buff. Result, hopefully, would be a gold plus blue-black damascus pattern.
I know of no way to make iron or steel turn a gold color, but a copper color can be achieved if part of a rust-blue method involves copper sulfate solution. Some parts of the twist pattern will blue much more than others, and the latter will just look more coppery from the copper plating. Suspect that is what the Mantons did on some of their early 1800s barrels.

End quote

The poster is an expert in engraving styles from the 1500s to the present.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mhb
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Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 77
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For Mehulkamdar: [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40464 - 03/11/05 01:50 AM

I'm not sure what you meant to say I'm right about. But we agree that Damascus patterned barrels are esthetically pleasing, I think.
The truth is I don't make barrels like those: I make only barrels of modern steels, because the materials lend themselves to better, safer products. Esthetic appeal can be added in a number of ways, but I wouldn't sign-up to any which might impact the safety or efficiency of the rifle when completed.
If, as I surmised, the BRNO barrels are made with only an external veneer of Damascus steel, no sacrifice of safety need be made, though I am unsure what impact a composite structure for the barrel might have on accuracy - and I always advise in favor of accuracy, when asked. I have done 'cosmetic' alterations to the external surfaces of rifle barrels (fluting, octagons, etc.), but only after advising the customer that any external alterations made to an (internally) finished barrel can only have a negative impact on accuracy, and the best one can hope for is that the rifle shoots acceptably well when finished. Barrels made in our shop always have shot exceptionally well, but that is probably because every operation is done by the barrel maker himself, and no 'seconds' ever leave the shop.
mhb - Mike

--------------------
Sancho! My armor!

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mehulkamdar
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Re: For Mehulkamdar: [Re: mhb]
      #40581 - 04/11/05 02:06 PM

Mike,

What I meant was that I agreed fully with you that safety and accuracy were the most important factors in making a barrel - no one wants a rifle blowing up while shooting it.

I had posted earlier about the Damasteel-Gobec barrels made from a modern stainless Damascus steel. link The Brno site fascinated me because they claim to make their barrels using the traditional process and not the ultramodern one that Damasteel and Gobec use.

Interestingly, there is an old Indian company link who manufacture Damascus barreled muzzleloaders even now along with ceremonial swords etc. Their rifles are proofed by Indian Ordnance Factories but they are black powder only and I have heard very favourable reports about them from a friend in France who has used them.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tinker
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Re: For Mehulkamdar: [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40598 - 04/11/05 03:05 PM

I have seen that site before.

What's it like getting contact with them?
I have yet to try to reach them, but I'm interested to hear and see more about those damascus black powder guns you speak of there.





--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: For Mehulkamdar: [Re: tinker]
      #40622 - 05/11/05 01:01 AM

Tinker,

Gajendra Singh Parihar who owns the Curious House company now is a very nice man. I did not know about the company myself, until a member at AR asked me for some assistance in getting their agency for France. He had been impressed with their guns when he saw them in the UK.

From what I understand, they are looking for dealers to sell their guns in different regions of the US and if you would like me to introduce them to you, I would be more than happy to do that. Please just let me know.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tinker
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Re: For Mehulkamdar: [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40646 - 05/11/05 03:30 AM

Mehul-

I will keep this in mind.
I am at this moment taking a bit of a break from some things I need to do in consideration of a possible move to Hawaii.
I'll get back to you on this particular topic when I know I have the time and attention to focus on a new contact.

I am very interested in seeing what they have going on with Damascus tubed black powder guns.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
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Re: For Mehulkamdar: [Re: tinker]
      #40726 - 05/11/05 03:53 PM

Tinker,

Best wishes with your move to Hawaii. I am told it is one of the best pig hunting regions in the world.

I wuld be more than happy to introduce you or any other member who might be interested to Gajendra Singh Parihar at the Curious House. I have heard recently that they have received an antiques license to export some very valuable antiques including some pre 1857 Indian matchlocks, Wootz (Damascus, Indian style) swords and daggers etc. When I get the details I shall post those here for whoever may be interested.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mhb
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Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 77
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Wootz steel... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #40764 - 06/11/05 01:05 AM

FWIW, Wootz steel was the first crucible steel, and it was made by Indian iron masters. This was the first process by which it was possible to make steel in useful-sized billets (several pounds). It was a valuable item of commerce for a very long time, and so-called 'Damascus', or patterned Oriental steel blades are almost universally made from Wootz steel billets of Indian origin, no matter where the blade was actually forged. Apparently Damascus was, at one time, a center for production of such blades - but the smiths there did not make the steel - they just produced the blades.
mhb - Mike

--------------------
Sancho! My armor!

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Wootz steel... [Re: mhb]
      #41385 - 12/11/05 05:30 PM

MHB,

Wootz is still made in India and decorative knives, cutlery and ceremonial swords and daggers are made from it by small companies, the aforementioned Curious House being one among them. I didn't know that it was an Indian invention until I read your post. Thanks for this information and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Charles_Helm
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Re: Wootz steel... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #41396 - 13/11/05 01:43 AM

There are even a few people in North America making Wootz for blades:





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Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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mhb
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Reged: 20/09/05
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Re: Wootz steel... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #41458 - 14/11/05 03:01 AM

There is a most excellent reference available which all arms collectors should have on the bookshelf: 'Fighting Iron - a Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors', by Art Gogan. The book is in-print, and is a very good metallurgical primer for anyone interested in the metals used in weapons. The various methods of steel production are covered, including the story of Wootz steel. I recommend this book highly.
mhb - Mike

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Sancho! My armor!

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tinker
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Re: Wootz steel... [Re: mhb]
      #41463 - 14/11/05 04:37 AM

Thanks Mike!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mhb
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Reged: 20/09/05
Posts: 77
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For tinker: [Re: tinker]
      #41540 - 15/11/05 03:12 AM

You are welcome. I hope you find the book as useful and informative as I do.

The bone and sinews of technological civilization are made of Steel.

mhb - Mike

--------------------
Sancho! My armor!

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