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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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buckstix
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I Bought an unknown-hope it is a 404 Jeffery/ its a 11.2x72
#385391 - 24/06/24 11:29 AM

I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery

Hello all,

When this one came up for auction last month I couldn't resist placing a bid to "tag" it, just to see high it would go.
Apparently my "tag" was too high, because I ended up as the winner. I sure hope it is possibly a 404 Jeffery as described.
The German metric designation for the 404J is 10.75x73 .... this is listed as 10.8x72. Will this be close enough? The fabulous
stock was a big attraction.

Regardless, this looks to be a keeper. I can't wait to get it in hand.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/imman-0.jpg

EDIT: I've edited the title to "I Bought an unknown-hope it is a 404 Jeffery/ its a 11.2x72" to reflect the thread's result. For future reference.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by NitroX (05/07/24 04:15 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385395 - 24/06/24 02:46 PM

this rifle looks fine but it could be also a 11,2x72 Schüler, have seen a Meffert for Müller/cape town rifle for the schüler cartridge before so expect the unexpected.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: lancaster]
#385397 - 24/06/24 03:49 PM

In the past gunmakers in Germany often used the bore and not the groove diameter. The designation 10,8x72 could also be that of the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler. The german designation of the cartridge 404 Jeffery is normally 10,75x73.

You can read the same answer on the other forum where I had just saw your post.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
#385421 - 24/06/24 08:12 PM

The old German proofmarks, as used from 1912 to 1939, often confuse moderns, especially Americans. Most German proofhouses marked not part of the cartridge name nor the larger groove or bullet diameter, but the smaller bore/land diameter. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs in .1 mm increments. Here a 10.8 mm plug passed the bore, but a 10.9 mm one did not. So the actual bore diameter may have been 10.89 mm. You have to add 2x the groove depth of about .1 to .2 mm to get an idea about the groove or bullet diameter.
So I think the 10.8 mm bore and 72mm case length point to the old 11.2x72 Schueler cartridge rather than the .404.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
#385422 - 24/06/24 09:05 PM

[QUOTE]=Axel E ... The old German proofmarks, as used from 1912 to 1939, often confuse moderns, especially Americans. Most German proofhouses marked not part of the cartridge name nor the larger groove or bullet diameter, but the smaller bore/land diameter. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs in .1 mm increments. Here a 10.8 mm plug passed the bore, but a 10.9 mm one did not. So the actual bore diameter may have been 10.89 mm. You have to add 2x the groove depth of about .1 to .2 mm to get an idea about the groove or bullet diameter.
So I think the 10.8 mm bore and 72mm case length point to the old 11.2x72 Schueler cartridge rather than the .404.[/QUOTE]

Hello kuduae,

Once again, I thank you for the explanation. Although I would have preferred if it was a 404 Jeffery caliber, I will be satisfied with the rifle if its an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. Fortunately since I have 2 other rifles in the Schuler caliber, I have lots of brass and bullets.

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Marrakai
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385424 - 24/06/24 09:30 PM

buckstix:
either way, you win mate!

Very nice hardware indeed.
Congratulations!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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kuduae
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: Marrakai]
#385427 - 24/06/24 11:49 PM

BTW, a Meffert rifle in .404 would have been marked by the Suhl proofhouse as 10.4 mm / 73

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DarylS
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
#385434 - 25/06/24 12:41 PM

That is a well put together piece of kit.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: Marrakai]
#385436 - 25/06/24 05:01 PM

Quote:

buckstix:
either way, you win mate!
Very nice hardware indeed.
Congratulations!

Couldn't put it better myself!
Lets see what the range reports brings!

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#385440 - 26/06/24 05:41 AM

I wish the auction house would have listed "believed to be the metric designation for the 11.2x72 Schuler" instead of listing "believed to be the metric designation for the 404 Jeffery". The reason being that the 404 Jeffery is a popular cartridge with readily available commercial ammo, where as; the 11.2x72 Schuler is an obsolete cartridge with no commercial ammo available, and very limited availability of brass and bullets and dies for reloading. If the listing had stated the Schuler caliber, bidding would likely have been much lower. Bidders would have been less likely to buy a rifle that required custom hand-loading, and I would have paid a lot less for the rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Rule303
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385443 - 26/06/24 09:07 AM

Very nice and unusual pick up Buckstix. I do agree with your last post and it amounts to a ripp off. I presume it was an unintentionally stuff up, well I hope it was.

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lancaster
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: Rule303]
#385447 - 26/06/24 10:14 PM

imho, auction houses ever believe the caliber because they are completely clueless

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: lancaster]
#385449 - 27/06/24 01:41 AM

yes, not only are they clueless, the auction houses are very incompetent - when I sold off 550 pieces 2 years ago, the auction house had over 300 mistakes; incorrect calibers, wrong manufactures, wrong serial numbers, and failure to recognizing factory finish.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385571 - 03/07/24 08:18 AM

Hello All,

I got the rifle in hand today. Its an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. The rifle weighs 9 pounds 15 ounces, with a 15" LOP. Here are the markings I found. I hope to know if this was an Oberndorf commercial action / barrel to start with. Thank goodness the auction house didn't list the stockmaker. I found his marking and I talked to the man that did the complete restoration in December 2005. He is James Tucker, and he is a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. This gun is far more spectacular in hand than any pictures can show. Tucker stocks start at about $5,500 plus the cost of the blank. In this case the blank was over $3,000. Not sure what all the metalwork restoration would cost.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/IMMAN-markings-0.jpg

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385576 - 03/07/24 03:01 PM

thats looking pristine

very nice rifle in a rare caliber, we not seeing them here in the fatherland.
I think you were lucky with this one.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: lancaster]
#385578 - 03/07/24 05:46 PM

Quote:

thats looking pristine

very nice rifle in a rare caliber, we not seeing them here in the fatherland.
I think you were lucky with this one.

That's an understatement Lancaster!

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kuduae
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
#385583 - 04/07/24 05:07 AM

Quote:

I hope to know if this was an Oberndorf commercial action / barrel to start with.

Neither action nor barrel were made at the Mauser, Oberndorf factory. This rifle was made and proofed in Suhl 11/28 = November 1928. At that time no one in Germany bought a new standard length action only from Mauser. The better Suhl gunmakers still had lots of unfinished actions in stock, left over from the 1915 – 17 “decentralized” making of Gewehr 98 and Kar 98AZ military rifles. These stocks lasted the better gunmakers like Meffert of the Suhl guntrade until WW2. Many more sporting rifles were made on scrubbed ex-military actions, but your rifle lacks the military arsenal workers marks under the receiver ring.
Commercial Mauser, Oberndorf actions intended for sale to other gunmakers were invariably marked with the full Mauser commercial serial number on the underside of the receiver and on the rear wall of the magazine. Here are three examples of such serial numbers.

The making of octagonal and half-octagonal, ribbed barrels waw a domain of the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis barrelmakers. There is strong evidence of Mauser buying in such special barrels from Suhl instead of machining small lots (for their factory) themselves.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
#385587 - 04/07/24 11:18 AM

Hello kuduae,

Thank you for the information and example photos. I hope to get to the range soon to test this rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Rule303
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385588 - 04/07/24 11:21 AM

That rifle looks good and I do like the stock. It is very well done, especially the way the fore end tip is worked into the stock.

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NitroX
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: Rule303]
#385594 - 04/07/24 05:36 PM

What's the ballistics of a 11.2x72 compared to a .404 Jeffery or 10.75x73?

The .404 Jeffery had an original 400 gr for 2100 to 2150 fps and modern loads of 2300 to 2400 fps.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: NitroX]
#385598 - 04/07/24 07:27 PM

The problem with the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler is that the bullet has to be set deep so that the cartridges fit into the magazine of an unmodified classic Mauser 98 action. This reduces the capacity of the case and therefore also the performance of the cartridge. I have never had my loads tested, but I assume that they are in the ballistic range of the original cartridges 404 Jeffery, meant a muzzle velocity of 2100 fps to 2200 fps. More could perhaps be achieved if the full length of the cartridge could be used, but that was never the case in the classic rifles made for this cartridge before the WWII. I shot only one buffalo with this cartridge, but with more modern bullets than the only available classic 401gr SP bullet from Woodleigh, this cartridge is certainly without any concerns suitable for hunting big game, better in all cases than the cartridge 10,75x68. Mr. Wim Degol in Belgium recently made by order for me FMJ bullets for the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler. Maybe I will have a chance to use this sometime for hunting big game.

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
#385600 - 04/07/24 09:44 PM

There is no longer a problem with the 11.2x72 Schuler's deep seated bullets. In today's World, there is a fair amount of loading data available that shows excellent velocities can be had with modern powders. Reduced case capacity from deep seated bullets is no longer an issue with modern powders. Pierre van der Walt's book "African Dangerous Game Cartridges" lists 14 different loads for 400g bullets for the 11.2x72 Schuler. One load is 80g of IMR3031 for 2380 fps. His load Data lists 20 different loads for 401g bullets. One load is 85g H4895 for 2450 fps.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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grandveneur
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: buckstix]
#385604 - 05/07/24 12:29 AM

I believe that the loads given by Pierre van der Walt are very theoretical. 80gr of IMR 3031 for example, is a very hot load when I compare to different loads that I have tested. I would never try to use it. I based myself on the data for the cartridge 404 Jeffery and tested many loads that are listed in the RWS manual and the A-Square manual. This loads are far from the above quoted loads. I was with this loads on the right side without getting into dangerous overpressure range. I also took into account the hot climatic conditions by hunting in Africa.

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DarylS
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
#385605 - 05/07/24 01:05 AM

I an sure Buckstix will work up good safe loads for the rifle using temperature stable powders. IMR3031 isn't one, but H4895 and IMR4451 are. There are others as well of course.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery [Re: DarylS]
#385606 - 05/07/24 02:16 AM

Quote:

I an sure Buckstix will work up good safe loads for the rifle using temperature stable powders.

Yes, I will be testing in a week or so.

.

Here is some additional loading info for the 11.2x72 Schuler from; Rifle Magazine; Issue #144 - November, 1992

This info should help others who want to shoot their rifles in this caliber.

Lots of safe loads above 2250 fps and several safe loads above 2350 fps

RWS cases were used in all loads. Bullets were seated to produce an overall cartridge length of 3.27 inches. Velocities are instrumental as recorded 10 feet from the muzzle by a PACT Professional Chronograph. Testing was conducted at temperatures ranging from 85 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Near maximum loads may be excessive in some rifles. Reduce all loads 10 percent and work up only as pressure signs permit.

Wt. - Bullet - Powder Mfg - Powder - Charge - Velocity

401 - Star softpoint - Alliant - RL-12 - 81.0 - 2,257
Remarks:

401 Star softpoint - Alliant - RL-12 - 83.0 - 2,297
Remarks: normal

401 Star softpoint - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 83.0 - 2,374
Remarks:

401 Star softpoint - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 85.0 2,448
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star softpoint - Accurate - AAC-2520 - 85.0 - 2,451
Remarks: maximum

401 Star softpoint - Alliant - RL-15 - 84.0 - 2,327
Remarks:

401 Star softpoint - Alliant - RL-15 - 86.0 - 2,437
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star softpoint - IMR - IMR-4064 - 86.0 - 2,424
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star softpoint - IMR - IMR-4350 - 87.0 - 2,127
Remarks:

401 Star softpoint - IMR - IMR-4350 - 89.0 - 2,168
Remarks:

401 Star solid - IMR - IMR-3031 - 78.0 - 2,318
Remarks:

401 Star solid - IMR - IMR-3031 - 80.0 - 2,380
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star solid - Alliant - RL-12 - 80.0 - 2,235
Remarks:

401 Star solid - Alliant - RL-12 - 82.0 - 2,300
Remarks: normal

401 Star solid - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 82.0 - 2,368
Remarks:

401 Star solid - Hodgdon - H-4895 - 84.0 - 2,436
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star solid - Accurate - AAC-2520 - 84.0 - 2,422
Remarks: maximum

401 Star solid - Alliant - RL-15 - 83.0 - 2,317
Remarks:

401 Star solid - Alliant - RL-15 - 85.0 - 2,421
Remarks: near maximum

401 Star solid - IMR - IMR-4064 - 85.0 - 2,422
Remarks: near maximum

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