NitroX
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Recent threads mentioned some issues with more affordable double rifles,
I'd like to have a discussion on "cheaper" double rifles.
What do you have? What did they cost? Why is it cheaper?
How do they perform? Factual comments please. Do they shoot tomregulation? Describe the "groups".
What have you used it on? Hunting, safari?
Many things affect the price of a double rifle. The brand is a big one. The amount and level of engraving another. The amount of hand fitting, master craftsman work. Good regulation is a time consuming but essential chore, and another cost factor. Other cost factors.
Please join in,
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John aka NitroX
 ...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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LTK
.224 member
Reged: 27/02/24
Posts: 41
Loc: Alberta Canada
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Define "cheaper".
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Quote:
Define "cheaper".
Work it out yourself. Have a go at an answer.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27654
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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Cheaper DR. I traded a 7x57 BRNO (1960)model 601(I think) for a Pedersoli Kodiak in .58. The BRNO had cost me $440.00 the previous year.
3 years later, after finding the Kodiak shot parallel with 110gr. 2F and a .574" round ball of 280gr. weight I sold it to a fellow who thought he needed it, for $550.00.
Today, that would be a cheap DR.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1487
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
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I suppose most guys (USA at any rate) would consider a Sabatti or Baikal as the benchmark for"cheaper"?
Now I have never owned or shot a Baikal (Remington), but I do have a Sabatti in 9.3x74R that is perfectly functional and groups nicely.
Circa 2” or less right/left hand loads at 50 yards with iron sights. The single trigger does not bother me a bit. I did replace the cheesy Sabatti recoil pad with a Pachmayer which gained me a welcome extra 1/2” length of pull.
This one is NOT one of the Cabela's rifles and does NOT have the ground muzzles.
This having been said, the stock fit to the action was sloppy, so it was glass bedded to make sure nothing was going to split.
The chambers are kind of an "odd" oversized rendition of 9.3x74R; different shoulder datum, almost an "improved" shape, etc. No problem if one does not reload. If you were to reload in standard 9.3x74 dies the case life would be pretty poor due to excessive sizing back to normal CIP dimensions. I was lucky enough to score a used set of RCBS custom dies to the Sabatti version of the chamber so reloading is no problem.
IMO a perfectly nice rifle for every day "rough hunting" where you would hate to bang up a nice higher grade modern or vintage rifle.
- Mike
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"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon
“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields
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Igorrock
.400 member
Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1684
Loc: Finland
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Here in Finland VALMET 412 with double rifle barrels costs normaly about 1000€. IMO it´s quite cheap.
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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/
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mauserand9mm
.400 member
Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1073
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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The Baikals may or may not regulate properly even with the adjustment facility. If it does then it's a bargain.
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Quote:
The Baikals may or may not regulate properly even with the adjustment facility. If it does then it's a bargain.
Yes I'd read that.
Does anyone has a loaded ammo or handloaded ammo which they have successfully got to regulate? Especially what projectiles? For the .45/70 Baikal.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
Edited by NitroX (04/04/24 11:54 PM)
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Marrakai
.416 member
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3700
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
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The Baikal .45-70 DR in my custody shoots the 350gr Woodleigh at 1950 fps, equaling .450x3¼ Nitro-for-Black ballistics all day long.
It was one of the original Remington contract that was cancelled, then retailed as a Baikal in Australia. Consequently it had "MR-221 Remington" etched on the action-bar, later scrolled-over and "Baikal MP-221" added to the underside of the bar.
Nothing wrong with the adjustable regulation on that rifle either, once its set correctly, although the muzzle band and front sight are pig-dog ugly!
...but they'll go when I lay solid ribs on that little double one day!
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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27654
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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"350gr Woodleigh at 1950 fps"
Decent ballistics.
Factory Hornady ammo with 325gr. is listed as 2,000fps.
I expect those would be OK in the Baikal.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
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Gentlemen, thanks for those projectile suggestions.
Marrakai, I'll contact you directly for what propellant and grains you use. A good place to start, I should have some 350 gr Woodleighs. I assume they are the .450 NE bullets. I'll have a look at their catalogue.
My Baikal .45/70 is one of my cheaper DRs. Purchased second hand $800 as the opportunity presented.
I originally had the concept of using it as a "truck gun". A rifle that could live in the ute behind the seats. As in the old days. However the modern restrictive legal requirements don't permit this. On the farm I don't have anything bigger than kangaroos. It can still do this when on "Aussie safari". Other uses can be as a "loaner" dr for visitors. And I am thinking of incorporating mine in my "Howdah shooting scenario" target shoot.
I also bought mine simply to give a Baikal a try.
At any rate a Baikal .45/70 dr can be a fun cheaper dr to shoot.
The Baikal side by side double rifles performed as a very cheap entry (below entry IMO) DR option for many shooters dreaming of owning a double rifle. Unfortunately I believe many would have been dissatisfied with the reality of a Baikal.
One because of its nature. Chunky. Cheap. Heavy.
Two. Reports people simply couldn't get them to regulate (?). User lack of knowledge and experience? Or the reality? I don't know, I've never shot mine !!!
The Baikal is another separated barrels DR. With adjustable wedges allowing in theory self regulation.
Currently mine is a working servant girl "Safe Queen". I'm going to see if "safe" .45/70 ammo can be sourced, and can be used and give it a simple first go. Then look at reloading, adjusting the barrels if needed.
Hopefully will work well enough for the purpose.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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My next affordable double rifle is my Tikka 512SD "Valmet" double rifle.
It's an under and over double rifle.
I purchased the original with a 9,3x74R DR barrels set, And an under and over shotgun set of barrels. From memory $1,600. Possibly from Texas. Later I purchased two extra combination barrels sets, in 12g/7x65R and 12g/.223. And a second DR set in .30-06.
The Valmets started as Valmet 412s, then Tikka, then Finnclassic. Now discontinued.
It's a separated barrels style DF with a rear adjustable wedges for elevation and a muzzle wedge to adjust for horizontal POI movement.
I've adjusted the rear wedge to get my 286 gr Woodleighs for the 9.3x74R to shoot two very good two shot groups, four shots in total, about 30 mm apart at 100 metres. Parallel grounds about the same gap as at the muzzles. I haven't used the .30-06 double barrels set yet.
I've used the U/O shotgun barrels a lot. It's a fair field shotgun. It has removable choke tubes and mine was magnaported. It's my only U/O shotgun. I usually use it for clay shoots.
I've also used the 12g/.223 combination barrels occasionally,
I'm still to use the 12g/7x65R combination barrels,
I bought up the barrels I wanted, as my experience if the rifle in no longer produced, barrels, accessories etc become scarce, expensive and hard to get. Stock up early!
My 9.3x74R wears a Lightforce illuminated reticle scope with an unusual reticle. The open flip up sights on "Valmets" are not good, Small square notch, flimsy flip up. The front sight is thick, I'm not sure if I can use them functionally, Never have used them to date.
The detachable mounts are not quick. They have a large screw to tighten them on. Reasonable return to point of aim. I do feel the need to range test shoot when changing barrels and if removing the scope. The scopes pretty much live on the barrels permanently. For the .223 I demand very accurate point of aim placement, head shooting foxes, hares, rabbits. For the 7x65R such accuracy is less important.
Additional barrels for the Valmet must be gunsmith fitted, There are detailed manuals on the NE forums,
The barrels on the Valmet style are sepated. Rubber "ribs" can be inserted. These improve the looks a little. I have put them on my combination barrels and double rifle barrels. I think I'm missing one rubber rib for the lot.
Two issues I've had with myn0 9,3x74R barrel set.
1, Fitting the rubber rib it appeared it might be affecting the regulation point of impacts. So I removed it. I'll fit it again one day and do some detailed testing to see it it affects accuracy and DR POIs.
2. I used my 9.3x74R in Namibia. Shooting a number of warthogs, At one point I felt the need to test shoot it on paper. The barrels were now shooting 30 cms apart !!! So I used a 8x68S bolt action rifle the rest of the safari.
Returning home I retest shot it, expecting to have to reregulate it. The POIs were 30mm apart like they should be..., WTF !!! I don't know what happened.
I've also shot some fourteen water buffalo with the 9,3x74R, some boars, scrub bulls, brumby horses,donkeys with it. Some deer,
The .223 on smaller game,
As a multiple barrel system, a Valmet might allow a lot of choices in restrictive gun legislation countries. If additional barrels are not counted, where a quota number in firearms is legislated, In the WA proposed draconian anti gun anti personal freedoms laws, the five and ten firearms limits include every barrel set. Not good and ridiculous. A multiple barrel firearm is sill only one firearm.
The Valmet barrels from the factory finished at the 9.3x74R at the upper end. However custom .375 barrels have been made. And a ,450/400 custom set of barrels is featured here on the NE forums. Maybe one-day if I can't afford a nice side by side dr .375 flanged or a .500/416 NE, I might get one of them in a custom set of barrels.
At one time, a Valmet or Tikka 12-bore shotgun could be purchased for around $A800 to $A1000. Add a set of combination or DR barrels set(s) if/when they appear, was around $400 to $1000 or more for combination or dr barrel sets, It was possible to acquire a Valmet for less than $2000 to $2500.
A lot of crappy bolt actions now are listed for $2000 to $5000 in auction sites. A Valmet represents fantastic value in comparison.
I'm reasonably happy with mine, much as I'd prefer nice side by side traditional fixed barrels rifles,
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
Edited by NitroX (09/04/24 06:41 PM)
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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At one time medium cartridge double rifles could be purchased for under $5000. In 7mm, 8mm, and so forth. Very good value imo.
Maybe a higher price now, I'm shocked at the prices asked at online second hand gun selling sites. For even crappy plastic stocked, ugly modern rifles.
The drs up to 9.3x74R were often cheaper. The .375 and up an added price. Again bumps for .500, .577 etc.
Many guys of course want a big bore romantic "real" double rifle. A stopper. A .45/70 is not one. A Merkel .470 NE second hand could once be purchased for around $8000. Excellent value when one pops up like that. More now? I don't know.
Many of these second hand rifles including crapster bolt action POS commercial rifles are often listed at a multiple of their new original purchase prices.
I hope some of mine have quadrupled in value! Will I ever sell them? I hope WA dictatorial style gun laws don't spread to other states. Firearms will become near worthless if hundreds of thousands need to be sold off. And near worthless due to restrictive use laws.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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mauserand9mm
.400 member
Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1073
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Quote:
Quote:
The Baikals may or may not regulate properly even with the adjustment facility. If it does then it's a bargain.
Yes I'd read that.
Does anyone has a loaded ammo or handloaded ammo which they have successfully got to regulate? Especially what projectiles? For the .45/70 Baikal.
The Baikals are hit or miss, so to speak. A friend of mine had the opportunity to play around with a couple in 45/70s some time ago - one regulated well with little fuss, the other lost accuracy out of one barrel when the regulation was improved. I don't think he was able to fix it by playing around with different loads. The regulating function puts stress on the barrels by forcing their relative positions. Luck of the draw if you get a good one that works well, but that's why they are priced the way they are I guess.
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m239
.300 member
Reged: 13/09/17
Posts: 116
Loc: Australia
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My CZ Brno Express 9.3 x 74R
@ 50m with PPU factory 285s
Have only used it on paper and 2L milk bottles filled with water so far.
Planning to take it out on some Sambar next month.
Edited by m239 (07/04/24 11:13 PM)
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27654
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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m239 - that BRNO should work perfectly.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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Hunter4752001
.300 member
Reged: 25/01/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Australia
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After Sako and Tikka were bought by Beretta, the rights to the 412/512 were sold to Marocchi. I don't know if they still produce them. I believe barrels were largely interchangeable between the Marocchi version and the earlier models. I think Centreway Firearms in Keilor East used to be the Australian agent. Maybe give them a call as to status and whether they have any barrel sets still in stock.
Edited by Hunter4752001 (08/04/24 04:26 PM)
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tarawa
.333 member
Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
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I have owned the following:
Pedersoli Kodiak .58 double
Pedersoli Kodiak .72 double
Baikal 30-06 SXS double
Two (2) Baikal O&U doubles
Kodiak 45-70
Kodiak 8x57JRS
Kodiak 9.3x74R ….(safe queen)
What I paid for all of them probably wouldn’t get me into a glamour double.
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Life is for Service
Edited by tarawa (09/04/24 11:57 AM)
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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My third "affordable" double rifle was I think $800. Pedersoli .58 Black Powder Muzzle loader.
I have not hunted with it. Have shot it at targets and fired it for fun. I purchased some lead mini style projectiles with it. They did not regulate. Suggested here on NE was round balls would work better. I have not tried them.
I did try to shoot an escaped farmed fallow deer years ago with it. Maybe 70 yards away. Completely missed. I had my BLR .308 slung on my shoulder was a reserve.
I hope with rounds balls it can be got shooting reasonably.
I've never cast bullets to date. Something new for me. Now I have a number of firearms requiring cast bullets, balls etc, so a needed skill.
I have tried making shot using a Shotmaker. Mine was slightly tear shaped. Was doing something wrong? Shot wasn't expensive to buy so didn't need to make my own. I haven't even hand loaded shotshells for decades. Again something I may need to restart.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Quote:
I have owned the following:
Pedersoli Kodiak .58 double
Pedersoli Kodiak .72 double
Baikal 30-06 SXS double
Two (2) Baikal O&U doubles
Kodiak 45-70
Kodiak 8x57JRS
Kodiak 9.3x74R ….(safe queen)
What I paid for all of them probably wouldn’t get me into a glamour double.
Can you provide some critique on them please? Your personal experiences with these rifles? Thanks.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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tarawa
.333 member
Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
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Pedersoli Kodiak .58 double
This was the hardest to work up a load for. It never grouped well. It was a quality built rifle, but I never had the patience for black powder.
Pedersoli Kodiak .72 double
Shot well at 25 and 50 yards. Much nicer gun than the .58 caliber. Really fun to shoot and attracts a lot of attention. I sold it before I ever used the big conicals that I had a custom mold made for me.
Baikal 30-06 SXS double
Great shooter. Grouped well at my range that was 50 yards. Typical Russian workmanship. Horrendous triggers.
Two (2) Baikal O&U doubles
I never liked over and unders with a gap between the barrels so I added ribs to them. They grouped well at 50 yards. Russian workmanship and horrendous triggers
Kodiak 45-70
Beautiful workmanship and wood. Never took it to the range, but hunt with it. Deadly at 125 yards with 300 grain bullets.
Kodiak 8x57JRS
Same as the 45-70 accurate and deadly. 150 grain factory ammo.
Kodiak 9.3x74R ….(safe queen) I was told by the previous owner that it shoots 2” groups at 50 yards. I can’t verify this yet.
Note: I sold all but the three Kodiak centerfires. I have only used factory ammo. My Kodiaks all have three leaf express sights, unlike the newer hokey left/right sights. As I said before I pretty much hunt South Florida hogs with my doubles.
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Life is for Service
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40606
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Thanks for the comments.
Quote:
Kodiak 45-70
Beautiful workmanship and wood. Never took it to the range, but hunt with it. Deadly at 125 yards with 300 grain bullets.
Kodiak 8x57JRS
Same as the 45-70 accurate and deadly. 150 grain factory ammo.
Kodiak 9.3x74R ….(safe queen) I was told by the previous owner that it shoots 2” groups at 50 yards. I can’t verify this yet.
Note: I sold all but the three Kodiak centerfires. I have only used factory ammo. My Kodiaks all have three leaf express sights, unlike the newer hokey left/right sights. As I said before I pretty much hunt South Florida hogs with my doubles.
I wanted a Pedersoli .72 rather than the .58 myself. But the second hand .58 happened by. I believe 10-bord smooth bore barrels are available as well, which would be cool.
The Pedersolis Kodiaks from your experience represent good value and results. Hammers so cool. Price? I remember around $4000 and $4500? Quite good value if so.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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tarawa
.333 member
Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
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Quote:
Thanks for the comments.
Quote:
Kodiak 45-70
Beautiful workmanship and wood. Never took it to the range, but hunt with it. Deadly at 125 yards with 300 grain bullets.
Kodiak 8x57JRS
Same as the 45-70 accurate and deadly. 150 grain factory ammo.
Kodiak 9.3x74R ….(safe queen) I was told by the previous owner that it shoots 2” groups at 50 yards. I can’t verify this yet.
Note: I sold all but the three Kodiak centerfires. I have only used factory ammo. My Kodiaks all have three leaf express sights, unlike the newer hokey left/right sights. As I said before I pretty much hunt South Florida hogs with my doubles.
I wanted a Pedersoli .72 rather than the .58 myself. But the second hand .58 happened by. I believe 10-bord smooth bore barrels are available as well, which would be cool.
The Pedersolis Kodiaks from your experience represent good value and results. Hammers so cool. Price? I remember around $4000 and $4500? Quite good value if so.
I purchased all three of my CF Kodiaks used. One on an auction site, two from fellow board members. Back then the price you stated was spot on. Now they are much higher if you can find them. Even Pedersoli black powder guns have almost doubled in price.
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Life is for Service
Edited by tarawa (11/04/24 12:40 AM)
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carpediem4570
.300 member
Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
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Bought my second double about 10years ago. I got real lucky and bought, brand new, a Merkel 141ae in 9.3x74R for $5500.00 Canadian. This is the double built on a petite frame with adjustable barrels for changing regulation. It is colour case hardened with a light touch of engraving. The plan was to take it to Africa to hunt Cape buffalo. However, an oil crash, a divorce and a downturn in the oil industry put an end to that dream. I use it for hunting dear on the acreage.
My first double was made by Antonio zoli. I purchased it used. It came in the original box with all the documentation for $5600.00 It was a model Savanah in 9.3x74R. Beautiful bluing, silver action, lovely bit of engraving. Sold it when I got the Merkel.
The third one is a baikal double in 45-70. Paid $850.00 Canadian. Now that I am retired, I plan on doing some shooting with this baikal this summer.
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Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"
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Ahmed577
.333 member
Reged: 13/06/13
Posts: 337
Loc: Western Australia
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Affordable not sure. HYEM build double rifles for 15% of a best gun. They are as accurate and reliable. I do use both.
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