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lancaster
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22 long rifle shot cartridge
      #383472 - 18/03/24 02:53 AM

the discussion about the use of 22 lr shotshells for shooting small game in the trap comes here regulary like christmas. anyone who try it says it don't work but people coming allways from outside and ask for this cartride when learning it exist because it seems to be the right thing. anyone trapping had a rimfire gun or pistol and looking for a cartridge that can be used safe so why not the little shotshell.
I had the rare orportunity to try a smooth bore with this cartridge against a common rimfire rifle. common concept is the shot get a spin in a rifled barrel that gives a hollow shot. the gun I had was probably a smooth bore 6 mm Flobert for the 6 mm Flobert shotshell sometimes reamed out for the 22 lr.

the old 6 mm flobert shotshell, made last time maybe in the 1980s by Fiocchi




the .22 lr rifle shotshell I use, made by RWS but other brands on the market must be similar



both targets shoot at 6 m, you see the carpenter's rule on the right side
aiming at the black dot


with a smooth bore, shots a little high



with a rifled bore



conclusion - the target with a smooth bore is noticeable better but with a rifled barrel is not so bad as you would believe. this 6 m distance is maybe the maximum you can use it but for what? with a smooth bore you can shoot mice in the kitchen but for rats it probably not hit hard enough.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #383474 - 18/03/24 03:58 AM

The .22 LR shot ctg. that was available here in the USA/Canada, used #12 shot.
One of the gun writers some decades ago, wrote an article on using a .22LR with shot for practicing wing shooting, by shooting dragon flies at a pond. In the article, he (?) noted the best range for this type of shooting was just a couple yards.
I would think one of the new Bug A Salt guns would have just as long a range & be cheaper to shoot.
Of course, these would not be lethal on mice, but are lethal on insects - this I know from experience.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Bug+A+Salt+Guns

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #383479 - 18/03/24 10:03 AM

When young I used a Lithgow single shot bolt action to shoot .22 RF shot cartridges at birds eating fruit in our fruit tree orchards. Maybe twelve feet was a good killing range. I killed a lot of birds. Later graduated to rimfire ammunition with bullets. And the .410 with shot shells.

I also used the .22 RF shotshells against pigeons roosting in the hay shed. Furtherer than twelve feet maybe twenty feet plus. It killed them very well. The .22 RF shot also doesn't penetrate the corrugated iron shed roof. So no bullet holes.

I've also used these .22 RF shot shells to shoot venomous snakes I've found inside the sheds. In the body disables them. In the head kills them. If a snake is behind a cabinet or storage shelves one might see only part of the snake. So a first shot to disable it. Snakes are protected but can be killed if endangering human or pet or stock. Nowadays wankers get very upset if a snake is killed, they "love snakes". Think a snake catcher should be called instead ... I've got no shortage of these deadly aweful things.

Rimfire shotshells kill rats in the sheds as well very easily.

Rimfire shotshells will kill larger than rat pests in the sheds as well if shot in the head, but I won't describe these roof nuisances.

I think our shot size might be 9s (?).

I've never patterned how they pattern in a Lithgow single shot rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (19/03/24 08:16 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #383482 - 18/03/24 10:09 AM

#9's would definitely be better than 12's which are akin to dust.
#9 tungsten, now, is what some guys are using for turkey from 20 bore flintlock muzzleloaders. The #9 tungsten is hard, heavy shot that penetrates like #4's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Hunter4752001
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #383483 - 18/03/24 11:39 AM

I've tested the CCI .22 shotshell. Effective for what its designed for ie killing rats or snakes. The CCI .22 is loaded with #12 shot. This effective for the intended purpose and is probably better than #9 shot because you get a denser pattern ie more likely to hit a vital. 3 metres is the maximum distance I would use it for.

ps Recommend wearing eye protection. That tiny shot can really bounce back if it hits a hidden stone or other hard surface.

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wjw
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #383485 - 18/03/24 02:45 PM

Am assuming that the desire to use a .22 shot cartridge for trapped animals is to reduce pelt damage. This would probably work at very close range but may not reduce damage as much as desired and at very close range may result in more damage.

In the 1950s I was given two boxes of CIL shot cartridges and used them in my Cooey repeater. Killed a few starlings with them. Between 10 - 15 feet the pattern was a donut of about 25 to 30 inches in diameter. Pellets were in a band about 2 inches wide. On crossing shots one aimed at the bird without leading and many times the starling fell. After every shot, the case failed to extract and had to be pushed out with cleaning rod as the metal crimp was caught in the start of the rifling.

Later, had the use of a smoothbore Remington pump that worked well and was very effective to about 10 feet using head shots on pigeons in the barn without damaging the building. Patterns and killing energy were inconsistent at greater distances.

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lancaster
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: wjw]
      #383486 - 18/03/24 04:59 PM

no, thanks to the greens pelt is next to worthless. is about safety when shooting into the trap or the Abfangkasten box.
the Abfangkasten is a special box you get the animal from the trap into to kill it there if its not possible to shoot it in the trap (in the concret pipe trap if you know this, maybe the best trap for the fox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmjExbhUI6w ) or you don't want to do it because of fear to damage the trap than.
looks like this https://www.jagdfallen-steingraf.de/shop/abfangkasten-fox-80cm/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #383502 - 19/03/24 07:20 AM

Wow that first trap Lancaster is really something - brilliant German engineering!
A Rolls Royce version of trap types for sure!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: 93x64mm]
      #383521 - 19/03/24 08:10 PM

Quote:

Wow that first trap Lancaster is really something - brilliant German engineering!
A Rolls Royce version of trap types for sure!



Wow I missed that YouTube the first time. Just needs a forklift or crane to get it in the forest.

I was disappointed that very elaborate trap didn't come with a Zyklon B automatic gas chamber ... No need for rat shot then !

Apologies! For my dark inappropriate humour.

I think that trap is over engineered. But that little tin lid on the access hole, nothing to lock it down.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #383522 - 19/03/24 08:13 PM

Quote:


I think our shot size might be 9s (?).





I saw the Winchester ammo brand I buy is 22s as well. No sure what they were 40 plus years ago.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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lancaster
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Re: 22 long rifle shot cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #383535 - 20/03/24 07:13 AM

the concret pipe trap is indeed a heavy thing and you need a machine to set it on its place. but with a little bit of maintenance it will do its work for decades. the concrete pipe trap was invented in germany in the early 1980s when hunters notice what a fox was allways doing. its common to have drainage ditches on the fields and where a farm track is crossing such a ditch you have a conrete pipe under this crossing to make a way for the water. it looks like this:




many of this ditches are only full with water in spring but the rest of the year more or less dry.
mister fox makes the patrol early in the morning and late in the evening every day and hunter see he was allways taking the way through such a concrete pipe if it was on his way.
so the idea was born to set such pipes for trapping and it became a great success not only for fox but other like racoon, marten, badger, racoon dog too.





the trap is great but maybe a little bit overengineering

here you see how to bring the game into the abfangkorb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT8X5mNL4Kk

and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9LBD-lvnBo

abfangen is german hunter language for killing, so simple

the most ingenious trap is imho, the danish crow trap


you see it here, very simple





you give a bait into the trap, maybe corn or other things the crows like. its easy to jump into the trap for the crow through the openings between the wood but its impossible to fly up again because the opening is to small for this. if the the first crow is trapped inside it will start a lot of noise that attract other crows who jump into the trap one after the other.



find a vid, its called ladder trap in english https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etys187J5gA

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lancaster
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shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #384147 - 14/04/24 02:12 AM

got a 9 mm Flobert rimfire/16 ga adapter, made long time by the well known barrel maker Lothar Walther in germany but now out of production for many years. L. Walther made a lot of such adapters that are higly sought after now most times by trap hunter to shoot small game in the trap. you can make your daily tour of inspection with the combination gun in case you need a big bullet or a shotgun and when there is something in the trap you just load the cartridge adapter to shoot it with the small bullet.
could be the same caliber but if you have an adapter shooting 32 ACP from a 308 rifle you don't need another gun.



the chamber for the 9 mm Flobert rimfire is off center so the center fire firing pin hits the rim











try the RWS BB cap, it make 167 m/sec( from a long barrel 240 m/sec) and 36 mm into dry pine wood
hits the point at 4 meter also





but now with the little shot cartridge, same like the .22 rimfire shootshell above, 6 meter from the target, aim at the black dot




surprised by the good patern


to have a comparison I shot my old belgian garden gun the same way, RWS 9 mm Flobert shot




and the pattern is bigger than the short 16 ga adapter had




here left the 16 ga adapter, right the garden gun


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #384148 - 14/04/24 03:07 AM

The 16 gauge pattern is quite unexpected. Not bad for 19 1/2 feet.
Even the garden gun looks respectable, but I expect the velocity is higher from the garden gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: DarylS]
      #384154 - 14/04/24 05:09 AM

Quote:

The 16 gauge pattern is quite unexpected. Not bad for 19 1/2 feet.
Even the garden gun looks respectable, but I expect the velocity is higher from the garden gun.



I think so but don't try to use the chrony. you never know if not one pellet make a lucky hit.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #384156 - 14/04/24 07:10 AM

Those adaptors are handy things aren't they!
Can you still get those Flobert shot shell Lancaster?
We won't have anything like that over here, except perhaps the 22LR ratshot cartridge.
I have a 308 Norma magnum/.30 carbine one made from a Walter 300WN adaptor - works a treat!

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DarylS
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384162 - 14/04/24 08:27 AM

For grouse, I used a 230gr. .45ACP Speer swaged bullet over 15gr. AL8 powder, for 1,340fps in my first .458 2". Seems to me, I filled the case with kapok between bullet and powder & used a magnum primer.
Shot 34 grouse & 4 ptarmigan one fall with that rifle & load, while moose hunting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: DarylS]
      #384176 - 14/04/24 08:53 PM

amazing, I would think the 230 grains bullet would do a lot of damage on such birds. I would made a short insert barrel in the size of a loaded cartridge for the 25 ACP which would be the right thing with its fmj bullet.
have you ever try to load the .458 2" with the .410 2" shot load, must fit into the case.
but what happen on the traget after 20 meter?

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384177 - 14/04/24 09:08 PM

Quote:

Those adaptors are handy things aren't they!
Can you still get those Flobert shot shell Lancaster?
We won't have anything like that over here, except perhaps the 22LR ratshot cartridge.
I have a 308 Norma magnum/.30 carbine one made from a Walter 300WN adaptor - works a treat!



the 9 mm Flobert double load (the long case) is loaded by RWS and Fiocchi. the RWS website ( very bad) don't show it anymore and its possible they stop to produce this cartridge tomorrow.
50 rounds box cost now over 50 euro https://www.frankonia.de/p/rws/9-mm-flobert-doppelschrot/66111

RWS is notorious for its high price that is not justified in most caliber, imho. sometimes it looks like they don't want to sell the ammo anymore to have a reason to stop production.

fiocchi /GFL also made it because some italians still need it for shooting little birds.
https://fiocchi.com/en/519059-519065.html
also with different pellet size, RWS only the No. 10

price is more reasonable with 23,90 for 50 cartridges

the caliber would be easily to import by the australian wholesalers of this firms but they will tell you there is not enough demand.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: shooting 9 mm rimfire from a 16 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #384190 - 15/04/24 02:49 AM

Quote:

amazing, I would think the 230 grains bullet would do a lot of damage on such birds. I would made a short insert barrel in the size of a loaded cartridge for the 25 ACP which would be the right thing with its fmj bullet.
have you ever try to load the .458 2" with the .410 2" shot load, must fit into the case.
but what happen on the target after 20 meter?



Usually took the head clean off. No body shots, but the solid lead round nose didn't cause cavitation on the odd one I made a bad shot.
The 15" ROT would not work well with shot, I assume, even at close range.
This load shot to the top of the "duplex" post at 25 yards in my 2 1/2X Bushnell Custom scope, about 2 1/2" under the centre crosshairs.
It shot into 3" at 100 yards off the bench & was about the same "power" as .44 mag with a non-expanding bullet. I figured I could have shot a deer with it, if needed.
When my bro had a model 94 in .356 Win. we loaded something like 12 gr. of Unique with a 124gr. 9MM cast bullet bought in bulk. It accounted for many grouse as well.
A chamber insert for .38 spl. or .380 auto might have been a good one for that rifle for the same use, but loading cast bullets with appropriate loads was superior, I think.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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