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NitroXAdministrator
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12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne
      #382984 - 29/02/24 09:36 PM

I was shown a couple of French shotguns today. Side by side. 12-bore. 65 mm chambers.

Boucher.
Made in Saint Etienne.

One shotgun has a left barrel smooth bore. Right barrel has shallow slow twist rifling.

I will try to post some photos.



















What would this shotgun be used for? Shot and ball. Shot and cone shaped slugs?



How would shot go through the shallow rifled barrel?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Edited by NitroX (06/03/24 03:18 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #382988 - 01/03/24 12:59 AM

Quote:

What would this shotgun be used for? Shot and ball. Shot and cone shaped slugs?



How would shot go through the shallow rifled barrel?





Must be shot and slugs.

Dunno the answer but from what I've read of use of shot thru Hastings rifled barrels, it wrecks patterns. Donuts and patchy.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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lancaster
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 9.3x57]
      #382991 - 01/03/24 02:32 AM

its a slug barrel, maybe works with the heavy paradox bullet
I would grab it.

--------------------
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.
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85lc
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: lancaster]
      #382992 - 01/03/24 02:48 AM

That is a very nice looking combo gun. I wonder how the left barrel is choked? Probably the right barrel would shoot a very wide pattern when fed shot which could be good for very close in shooting quail with shoits at 10 yds.

Let us know if you get and shoot it.

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RB

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DarylS
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 85lc]
      #382995 - 01/03/24 04:42 AM

I would expect the right barrel to be for slug only, as shot will centrifuge out quickly, due to the rifling, good for nothing.
Cape gun type.
What's the rate of twist. Doesn't look THAT fast.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: DarylS]
      #382999 - 01/03/24 05:26 AM

Quote:


Cape gun type.
What's the rate of twist. Doesn't look THAT fast.



To my eye looks a very slow twist.

Very shallow rifling.

I hope it could be used for some sort of shot? Only way would be to pattern it.

Sights are just a muzzle bead. It's stocked with the comb low enough I can loose sight of the bead completely. I'd have to hold my head a little higher. No rear sight.

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383002 - 01/03/24 08:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Cape gun type.
What's the rate of twist. Doesn't look THAT fast.



To my eye looks a very slow twist.

Very shallow rifling.

I hope it could be used for some sort of shot? Only way would be to pattern it.

Sights are just a muzzle bead. It's stocked with the comb low enough I can loose sight of the bead completely. I'd have to hold my head a little higher. No rear sight.



Pretty predictable for full length rifling to throw a wide and patchy pattern. However, as you say, only way to know is to test it. You may find you have a nice short range quail gun. Tinkering with loads (full length wads) may provide a few options.

It sure is an interesting gun.

I'd be just as curious to know what it would do with a slug, round ball, etc. Maybe try an RB seated in a cup wad. Try pushing it thru the bore to make sure it doesn't bind either in the forcing cone or anywhere else?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383117 - 05/03/24 09:08 PM

I've acquired this shotgun.

Will see how it shoots with shot through both barrels when I get hold of it.

I've got a small quantity of various slugs I was going to try through my Simson shotgun. I'll try in the Boucher. Later home loads of conicals, ball, slugs etc. I'll have to see if I've got any SGs and SSGs to try. I've 250 BB shotshells now.

I sadly missed out on the second French Shotgun. Round body, nicely engraved, worn checkering. Unusual opening. A spring. Squeeze a small "claw" on the trigger guard, opens the action. Extractors. 12-bore. 65 mm. No obvious maker brand.

I really liked that unusual shotgun as well. Would have bought it, but gone already.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/03/24 09:12 PM)

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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383118 - 05/03/24 09:16 PM

A question for large shot experienced shooters.

If shooting medium game, eg pigs, goats, roos, fallow sized deer, and similar sized beasts, what shot size would you use?

SGs I think are .33". SSGs are I think .27".

SGs might have 9 pellets .33s.
SSGs have about 17 pellets (?) .27s,
32 gm 1 1/8 oz loads.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383119 - 05/03/24 09:34 PM

Quote:



Will see how it shoots with shot through both barrels when I get hold of it.

I've got a small quantity of various slugs I was going to try through my Simson shotgun. I'll try in the Boucher. Later home loads of conicals, ball, slugs etc. I'll have to see if I've got any SGs and SSGs to try. I've 250 BB shotshells now.



I've just realised 2 1/2" 65mm chambers .... All of this ammo will be longer shotguns.

I can probably get 65 mm no 4vand no 6s, maybe 8s etc in 65 mm but don't SG sized shot or slugs ... Bugger, will slow it all down. I'll have to pull out the shotshells reloader for the first time in decades. And how to handle 65 mm shells.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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9.3x57
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383127 - 06/03/24 01:09 AM

Uh, oh...we may never hear from John again once he goes down the Buckshot loading hole. I disappeared from society for about 5 years...

Quote:

If shooting medium game, eg pigs, goats, roos, fallow sized deer, and similar sized beasts, what shot size would you use?

SGs I think are .33". SSGs are I think .27".

SGs might have 9 pellets .33s.
SSGs have about 17 pellets (?) .27s,
32 gm 1 1/8 oz loads.



I've worked up many, many loads and shot boxes of shot and cast hundreds of pellets and lots and lots of time on the pattern board but Marrakai is the guy to get the flesh and bones performance from.

For my overview, see below...

Quote:



Will see how it shoots with shot through both barrels when I get hold of it.

I've got a small quantity of various slugs I was going to try through my Simson shotgun. I'll try in the Boucher. Later home loads of conicals, ball, slugs etc. I'll have to see if I've got any SGs and SSGs to try. I've 250 BB shotshells now.

I've just realised 2 1/2" 65mm chambers .... All of this ammo will be longer shotguns.

I can probably get 65 mm no 4vand no 6s, maybe 8s etc in 65 mm but don't SG sized shot or slugs ... Bugger, will slow it all down. I'll have to pull out the shotshells reloader for the first time in decades. And how to handle 65 mm shells.



The short chamber is not really all that big of a handicap tho you will have to handload most likely as I don't think you have many options in factory over there?

Anyway, the Hodgdon reloading site has 2 1/2" load data using powders I think you have over there (just called something different). If you have a drill press get a roll crimper bit or if you have an antique roll crimper that clamps to the table, you are set. Your challenge w/ buckshot will be fitting it in. It uses up more VOLUME than small shot for the same weight. Plastic cases can be trimmed just below the crimp and roll crimped for the short 2 1/2" loads. Works great.

As for pellet size see Marrakai but I think .30 to .33 cal is likely your best bet. A .30 cal pellet should allow a 3 pellet layer of 3 (9 total) I THINK in your short shells using an appropriate wad. A .27" (US #2 or Brit SSG) adds some more pellets but of the sizes I've used (.20, .24, .27, .31, .33, .34, .366) it seems to pattern from my guns the widest regardless of choke. Don't ask me why. That's the Rabbit Hole.

Remember: A 2 pellet stack will normally pattern the tightest due to the fewer dents caused by other pellets upon discharge. So if you can get 8 say .33's stacked 2x2 in a plastic wad, you will likely get a denser pattern (more pellets on target) than a standard non-wadded load using 9 or even 12 pellets. It may seem counter-intuitive but if 4 or 5 of your 9 pellet load "fly wide in the ditch" as Kipling said and only one does from your 8 pellet load, well, you see the point here. Sometimes the differences are not that dramatic but sometimes they are!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (06/03/24 01:11 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383132 - 06/03/24 03:21 AM

The problem with the 2 1/2" short shells is crimping. A roll crimp tool spun with a drill press is the best method of handling that chore.
Brass cases can have a mild crimp done with a coned crimping tool like those on presses for paper cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Unusual French shotguns, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: DarylS]
      #383134 - 06/03/24 04:00 AM

Quote:

The problem with the 2 1/2" short shells is crimping. A roll crimp tool spun with a drill press is the best method of handling that chore.
Brass cases can have a mild crimp done with a coned crimping tool like those on presses for paper cases.



The regular 2 3/4 inch shell cut more or less at the crimp fold makes for an easy roll crimp. Picking hulls w/ a low internal basewad increases internal volume and allows that much more space inside.

US military brass rounds had the heavy roll crimp or the crimping petals I posted pix of in the other thread.

Brass cases I do believe have the most internal space so for buckshot rounds another option might be Magtech brass cases cut to 2 1/2" and waterglass glued shut or roll crimped. A box of 25 would last a long time especially glued shut.

John can you get brass hulls there?

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/MagTec...ctinfo/3921270/

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NitroXAdministrator
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12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383162 - 06/03/24 02:56 PM

I may have already possibly two boxes of magtech 12g brass. Unused. Have to find where I put it.

The Boucher shotgun has a choke of cylinder, right barrel, of course. As it would be used for ball or slugs.

And full choke left barrel. For shot of some description.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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9.3x57
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383163 - 06/03/24 02:59 PM

Quote:

I may have already possibly two boxes of magtech 12g brass. Unused. Have to find where I put it.

The Boucher shotgun has a choke of cylinder, right barrel, of course. As it would be used for ball or slugs.

And full choke left barrel. For shot of some description.



I see a string of great threads coming!!

This is gonna be fun.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by NitroX (06/03/24 03:19 PM)

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bwanabobftw
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383254 - 09/03/24 09:42 AM

The brass cases will be the easiest for what you are doing. I would try a round lead ball in that right barrel, it might really surprise you.
Good luck and let us know how it shoots.
Robert

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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #383255 - 09/03/24 10:18 AM

Getting powder is our biggest problem - best of luck John!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 93x64mm]
      #383268 - 09/03/24 04:18 PM

Quote:

Getting powder is our biggest problem - best of luck John!



I've got some ancient 800X Du Pont powder from decades ago, when I last loaded 12 bore shells.

What's the better powders today?

We seem to have permanent handgun powder shortages, for years. Some Vitatouri (splg?) was available after five years $1200 For 3.6 kg!!! Sold out instantly. I need powder for a .38 Super.

So shotgun powders are hard to get still?

Black powder is hard to get here? Someone needs to drive over to Vic to pick it up.

Rifle powders can become scarce at times.

Primers can be in short supply.

My paranoid mind sees a pattern here.

Loaded ammo very expensive. Rare cartridge ammo non existent.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (09/03/24 05:19 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383284 - 10/03/24 06:15 AM

Unique, if you can get it, will load .38 Super just fine. for 2 1/2" hulls, it is a bit too slow, but might work for 12 bore ball loads.
It may also work with shot as well.
Seems to me, 800X should work about the same as Unique, being slower burning than the trap powders.
It should also work in .38 Super just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: DarylS]
      #383287 - 10/03/24 06:58 AM

thats good luck, I was looking for such a rifled gun for years

--------------------
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.
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: DarylS]
      #383307 - 10/03/24 04:41 PM

Quote:


Seems to me, 800X should work about the same as Unique, being slower burning than the trap powders.
It should also work in .38 Super just fine.



Wow, I didn't know. And it's just been sitting there.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: lancaster]
      #383325 - 11/03/24 03:00 AM

Quote:

thats good luck, I was looking for such a rifled gun for years



I'm interested, if you had one, for what and how would you use one?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: NitroX]
      #383326 - 11/03/24 03:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Seems to me, 800X should work about the same as Unique, being slower burning than the trap powders.
It should also work in .38 Super just fine.



Wow, I didn't know. And it's just been sitting there.



The 800X loads will be .3gr. greater than 700X for a maximum load.
If you don't have 700X loads for the .38 Super, let me know and I'll PM you those, for whatever bullet weight you specify.
I've looked in over a dozen loading manuals and can not find specific load data for 800X in the .38 Super.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: DarylS]
      #383332 - 11/03/24 07:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Seems to me, 800X should work about the same as Unique, being slower burning than the trap powders.
It should also work in .38 Super just fine.



Wow, I didn't know. And it's just been sitting there.



The 800X loads will be .3gr. greater than 700X for a maximum load.
If you don't have 700X loads for the .38 Super, let me know and I'll PM you those, for whatever bullet weight you specify.
I've looked in over a dozen loading manuals and can not find specific load data for 800X in the .38 Super.



No need to interpolate.

Here's two:

1) Page 56: pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/imr_reloading.pdf

2) Page thru the prompts: hodgdonreloading.com

PS NITRO: The Hodgdon site has loads for 2" and 2 1/2" hulls, too.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (11/03/24 07:48 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore French shotgun, Boucher, St Etienne [Re: 9.3x57]
      #383741 - 30/03/24 01:46 AM

Status of the shotgun: I'm still waiting for paper work, PTA Permit to Acquire.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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