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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: chuck375]
      #380312 - 24/10/23 04:26 PM

People always talking about a .275 or a .308 or a .375 if shot well and penetrating the brain, breaking the spine etc aren't talking about a stopping rifle.

Of course a 900 gr bullet or a 175 gr bullet penetrating the brain well will kill an animal.

A stopping rifle isn't about good precise bullet placement. It's about rushed shots, charges, missed brains, body shots. It's about knocking a lion down, a leaping leopard, a buffalo heads down at close range, an elephant coming fast, in the O,d days arhino with itshorn in the way.

It's about flattening the beast, stunning it, raking it from end to end, shoking it's brain, causing massive muscle, tissue and organ damage.

I remember a PH telling me a .500 Asquare was useful for flattening a lion "boiling out from the bush". He also had a .460 Asquare. The .500 was better he said for flattening an attacking lion.

A .375 solid to an elephant's or buffalo's brain will kill it. A miss on the brain might not even cause it to flinch, especially the elephant. A 570 gr .500, a 750 gr .577, a 900 gr might crack the skull, stun the beast, even kill it. At the least might give time for the killing shot.

No one flinches on the internet, so recoil is never a problem. So of course a lesser recoiling rifle is a better choice if one has nothing else, or can't handle a very heavy recoiling rifle. A well aimed shot is always better than a flinched miss.

For the cool superbly practised shot, a .375 or a .275 or .318 can be a stopper. Mere mortals need help and a hammer.

For me a stopper begins at the .450s, and preferably a .500. A thick bush or scrub rifle for DG is the same.

Unless one has a gun bearer, the modern world is a world of compromise. A client or self hunter can only carry one rifle. The usual choice is the .375 to .450 range. If specific on buffalo, elephant etc maybe something larger.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
      #380313 - 24/10/23 06:32 PM

I can completely agree with that, but I don't know what experience the various hunters who have posted here have with hunting big and dangerous game.

I have my experience with this hunt, and cartridges caliber 9,3mm or 375, and to some extent also 416, have little place in this discussion about stopping and killing when something goes wrong.

I never meet a PH who used anything smaller than 458 Winchester Magnum or 458 lott for backup when hunting elephants. Some were very enthusiastic about the cartridge 505 Gibbs, and in many cases it is the price of all these weapons that unfortunately prevents some PH from purchasing a rifle in caliber 50.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #380315 - 24/10/23 08:25 PM

Yes my experience has been witha 9.3x74R, .375 H&H Mag, .450 no.2 NE. MY .404 and 10-bore will add to that sooner than later.

The rest is armchair, internet chat and beliefs gathered over 40 years from others with more and all sorts of experience.

I've shot larger rifles, up to the .600 NE. In an ideal world, I'd get to use some of these on elephant, buffalo, lion, surviving all sorts of adventures. Or not!

I'm reasonably happy with my 9.3, .375, .404, .450 and 10-bore in the meantime.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #380406 - 28/10/23 01:29 AM

Quote:

I can completely agree with that, but I don't know what experience the various hunters who have posted here have with hunting big and dangerous game.

I have my experience with this hunt, and cartridges caliber 9,3mm or 375, and to some extent also 416, have little place in this discussion about stopping and killing when something goes wrong.

I never meet a PH who used anything smaller than 458 Winchester Magnum or 458 lott for backup when hunting elephants. Some were very enthusiastic about the cartridge 505 Gibbs, and in many cases it is the price of all these weapons that unfortunately prevents some PH from purchasing a rifle in caliber 50.




Well as the proud owner of a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery, the first time I took it out was for load development. I put 30 rounds (5 different loads with a 570g TSX) through it from the bench (the last load chrono'd at 2510 fps. I was wearing a T-Shirt like an idiot and once I my shoulder started aching I soldiered on. My shoulder bruise was epic. I've never had a flinch but was desperately afraid I would get one so I didn't shoot it again for two months, did a lot of dry firing and when I went back to the range all was well. It's now my favorite rifle to shoot (in small doses). I can tell you having shot a 458 Win Magnum, the difference in recoil was startling. I'm happy with my rifle glad I had it built, but would strongly advise anyone contemplating buying a "big 50" they shoot someone elses before they go down that path. Some pics

My 500 Jeffery

[img]http://i.imgur.com/BD0shRU.jpg?1[/img]

My last 3 shot groups at 50 yards (570g TSX at 2300 fps). I don't usually do this (once it groups well and it's sighted in I practice offhand and sitting). This was NOT from the first day.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Ti0lQWX.jpg?1[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/mOXPJI5.jpg[/img]

My epic shoulder bruise the day after. My wife made me go to the doctor, he asked me which end of the rifle caused it lol It actually got worse the next several days

[img]http://i.imgur.com/eWD7vjm.jpg[/img]

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (28/10/23 01:37 AM)


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: chuck375]
      #380407 - 28/10/23 02:27 AM

I think that one buy big bore rifles because they are needed for something special and not because they have a bigger caliber and do more recoil that the rifle of the neighbor.

Of course, this assumes that you can handle such weapons. As already written, nowadays it no longer has to be a weapon caliber 50 or bigger. The production of the cartridge 416 Rigby at the beginning of the 20° Century has resulted in some DR caliber 577 Nitro Express remaining in the gun safe. The stopping effect of the cartridge 416 Rigby can be discussed, but a rifle caliber 458 with a strong built-up FMJ bullet is certainly a rifle to use nowadays for stopping and killing the biggest game. Such weapons are also much easier to handle than rifles caliber 50 and above.


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #380415 - 28/10/23 10:01 AM

Quote:

I think that one buy big bore rifles because they are needed for something special and not because they have a bigger caliber and do more recoil that the rifle of the neighbor.

Of course, this assumes that you can handle such weapons. As already written, nowadays it no longer has to be a weapon caliber 50 or bigger. The production of the cartridge 416 Rigby at the beginning of the 20° Century has resulted in some DR caliber 577 Nitro Express remaining in the gun safe. The stopping effect of the cartridge 416 Rigby can be discussed, but a rifle caliber 458 with a strong built-up FMJ bullet is certainly a rifle to use nowadays for stopping and killing the biggest game. Such weapons are also much easier to handle than rifles caliber 50 and above.




As you said assuming one can handle the larger calibres. If they cannot, then saying a bigger calibre is to be used is incorrect. As discussed, to use a calibre you cannot handle is a mistake. If you are thinking that one should use the biggest calibre they can handle, I would agree with.

My recoil tolerance id a 450 grain bullet from a 416 Rigby, yes, I can handle a 458Win as to me this kicks less, but I feel more confident with the 416. Yes I have hunted Elephant and Buffalo but not in any numbers. As to a FMJ I would prefer a mono metal bullet like the Woodleigh Hydro or the ones made by some South African manufactures others made in the US. Preferably with a cup nose or Metplate.

I would love to be able to tolerate the recoil from a 505 Gibbs etc.


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grandveneur
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: Rule303]
      #380425 - 28/10/23 06:00 PM

If you cannot handle a big bore rifle, there is also the alternative of not hunting big game.

There are a few things in all discussions that are distorted because the absolute majority of hunters who hunt big game have a PH with them, a hunter who is right armed for this hunt and ensures safety. That is why one can hunt big game with medium and large medium bore cartridges without any concerns. If some had to hunt alone, they would look at things differently.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #380427 - 28/10/23 09:25 PM

If one could hunt big game and dangerous game without a PH slot wouldn't do it.

Myself I found it far more fun and enjoyable.

Very true, the choice of tool, the firearm, is given more thought, less stuntster choices, more effectiveness desired. All on ones londsome self ...

I like my Jeffery DR .450 NE for that reason.

Carrying a BLR .308 once for real pigs and feral donkeys, I questioned whether four or five round magazine was enough for the grumpy scrub bull glaring at me from above on the slope. Luckily he never charged. I didn't have permission to shoot scrub bulls as well.

A 9.3 or .375 would have been preferable. Or some medium bore, 8mm and up.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: NitroX]
      #380430 - 29/10/23 03:25 AM

When I was young and immortal in my 20s i was an assistant guide in the Bob Marshall. Hard work but exciting. I was the backup. I had a BDL in 270, I thought that was a canon! Now that I'm just starting to do guided hunts, I like that too!

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (30/10/23 03:21 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: chuck375]
      #380433 - 29/10/23 04:33 AM

When I was guiding, a .458 of some sort, either .458 American (400gr.Barnes @ 2,150fps), or the .458 Alaskan (.400gr. Barnes at 2,300fps) was my back-up rifle. Only needed the .458 2" once, on a black bear at very close range.

Hunting by myself for years, with the .458 2" or a .375 of one sort or another. Even used a .257 Ackley IMP on moose one fall.
If I go out hunting now, it's my 1936 Winchester .30GVT06. 180's at 2,745fps. I just love that rifle. The .375 stays in the lockup.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4917
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Killing vs. Stopping. [Re: grandveneur]
      #380436 - 29/10/23 11:42 AM

Quote:

If you cannot handle a big bore rifle, there is also the alternative of not hunting big game.

There are a few things in all discussions that are distorted because the absolute majority of hunters who hunt big game have a PH with them, a hunter who is right armed for this hunt and ensures safety. That is why one can hunt big game with medium and large medium bore cartridges without any concerns. If some had to hunt alone, they would look at things differently.




To me the not hunting the big game is not an option unless I was only able to handle 30-06 recoil. I would comfortably hunt by myself with confidence in the 416 Rigby or the 404 Jeffery.


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