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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1416
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: fraserdouble]
      #380121 - 16/10/23 11:45 PM

Thankyou fraserdouble! Good catch.
I'm sure you are quite correct now that I take the time to really look at the script.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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rigbymauser
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380130 - 17/10/23 06:56 AM

Quote:

Thank you rigbymauser and grandveneur!

Mike - I agree no earlier than 1895 based on Watson address.

Lastly, an abbreviated range report - I was out at range today to test a .361" 145gr LRN load for a single Alex Henry takedown falling block, also in 360EX. I tried that load in the Watson...not a good fit. I also tried 3 rounds I'd loaded earlier using heavier jacked .358" 185gr JHP. Same powder charge. This heavier load with jacketed bullets was much better. More testing ahead. And slugging the bore.




I think the .360ex is a .364-.366 cal bullet.

Enjoy the range. Best fun to have on testing loads.


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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: fraserdouble]
      #380137 - 17/10/23 08:42 AM

Quote:

I think that reference in the ledger is actually A&D for Anson and Deeley.




Agree! The "D" looks exactly like the "D" in double right after that. I had that wrong. Thanks.

Edited by CJF (17/10/23 11:28 AM)


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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
Posts: 220
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: rigbymauser]
      #380138 - 17/10/23 09:57 AM

Quote:


I think the .360ex is a .364-.366 cal bullet.

Enjoy the range. Best fun to have on testing loads.




I will measure the bores tonight. In going through the Holland & Holland case the rifle has inhabited for quite a few decades, I spent some time reading the index cards prepared by its previous owner. The only date noted on the cards was December, 1949. I wish I knew more about who owned this before me!

On those cards were bore measurements of 0.360" and groove diameter of 0.368-9"

If those turn out to be accurate, can you experts recommend

    1) what diameter jacketed projectile to use? I have some new-old-stock RWS 9.3x72r bullets that are 193grain 0.362" or could order as needed, possibly from Hawk. For a few testing rounds, I could also tear down some factory 9.3x72r with 0.366" projectiles

    2) what diameter lead projectile to use? I suspect I'll be ordering another mold from Accurate. What alloy for a NfB load going no faster than 1650fps?

Here are the cards:



Edited by CJF (17/10/23 10:04 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26533
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380139 - 17/10/23 10:21 AM

I would have Lee make me a sizer die (maybe a 2 die set, .370", then .368" and I would size down 200gr. Sierra .375" bullet.

You could experiment with cup-pointing them, to produce slightly lighter bullets.

I used a lathe "centre-drill" for "cupping" 270gr. Speer to reduce them to 260gr. for some experiments.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1416
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: DarylS]
      #380149 - 18/10/23 02:40 AM

Chris,
Depending upon how you get decent results on target and regulation I’d opt for cast bullets.
No worry about where to find “in stock” jacketed bullets, no compromise on best bullet diameters to fit the bore/groove, no cleaning copper fouling…..
Any bullet mix from 20:1, 15:1, wheel weights, or Lyman #2 should work just fine at about 1650’/sec for expected double rifle accuracy and distances. I’d personally use a gas check bullet, but that’s just my preference. A card wad at the olain base bullet base would work about as well.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26533
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380153 - 18/10/23 03:34 AM

In the "case" of cast bullets, any .375 mould, sized or at least lubed, then reduced to the exact diameter you want with a Lee push-through die.

If lubed first, there will be ZERO damage to the bullet. If not lubed (lube grooves filled with lubricant), the lube grooves will collapse.

I tested this with some commercial 310gr. .375 bullets I obtained and reduced them to .367" for my 9.3x57 with one pass through the die I made. ZERO damage.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: DarylS]
      #380168 - 18/10/23 11:24 AM

If you like, I can swage paper patch bullets of any weight that, depending on the paper, can be wrapped to .366 or more.
I use these at 190gr in my Leeson single shot and it seems to like them.
Alternately, this would hold true for any .358” cast bullet.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: Huvius]
      #380230 - 21/10/23 04:42 AM

I cast the chamber, leade and bore and got 0.365"

My next step is loading some of the RWS jacketed (nickel?) 190 grain bullets on hand from a purchase of NOS 9.3x72r components (these were sold in 50 bullet boxes by Old Western Scrounger at some point in the past).

I am also loading some paper patched 170 grain LRN bullets that are 0.358". I have the 9lb onion skin paper from Buffalo arms - I'm trying that paper as well as credit card receipt paper I collected while fueling our RV on this summer's trip to Colorado. The receipts wrap much more easily for me.

I'll explore molds and sizing dies if successful with the above.


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1416
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380237 - 22/10/23 01:37 AM

Chris,
In 1906 if it were a Cordite/Nitro rifle it would be so marked…..
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: fraserdouble]
      #380283 - 23/10/23 09:30 PM

What a great rifle! Congratulations on the buy.

Would you please post photos of the barrel flats, water table, and all barrel markings? That would help in providing background information.

fraserdouble is certainly correct. The ledger entry notes "A&D" for Anson and Deeley. Compare the "D" with the capital "D" on the next word, "Double". Same.

Do not try to put oil into the firing pin holes or other portals. You will just introduce harmful oil into the head of the stock. You can loosen the rear trigger by carefully cleaning the trigger blade (the part that goes up into the action) with a toothbrush and very light solvent, such as Kroil. Don't go overboard, and don't get it on the wood. You will see old crud slowly dissolve, and the trigger will free up.

I would never use Teflon as a substitute for paper or bullet lube.

Good luck, and keep us updated.

Curly

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CptCurl]
      #380284 - 23/10/23 09:33 PM

P.S.

I would advise against using that vintage ammunition. It is valuable in its own right.

If you do happen to shoot some of it, be sure to follow up with a good cleaning for corrosive primed ammo.

Curly

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
Posts: 220
Loc: United States
Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CptCurl]
      #380303 - 24/10/23 10:39 AM

Mike - agree with your comment about the rifle's 1906 date and nitro proof marks in effect then (post 1896 and post 1904 would dictate a nitro mark if proofed for nitro. I'm keeping this at nitro-for-black loadings.

Curly - I appreciate the help. I was planning on selling most of the vintage ammo, keeping some to go with each of the 360EX rifles I have now, so no plans to shoot it. Previous owner was nice enough to save an empty Kynoch box and 9 berdan cases (Kynoch and Eley) in addition to the loaded ammo. I will have to take the Daniel Fraser black powder ammo out of its bubble wrap soon and photograph that.

Re the rear trigger, appreciate the advice. I have not done anything except use the rifle and the trigger is no longer sticking. I still like the advice of cleaning off the trigger blade that's on this side of the trigger plate. I have Kroil on hand.

Apologies if I hadn't already posted flats and water table. Coming shortly, along with a range report. No barrel markings except as reported above: "Watson Bros" and "29 Old Bond Street London."

Edited by CJF (24/10/23 11:47 PM)


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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
Posts: 220
Loc: United States
Range results - Watson 360 - 10/23/23 [Re: CJF]
      #380304 - 24/10/23 10:58 AM

Range results - Loaded 193gr jacketed soft points by RWS, 0.366", over 22gr H4198. Results were much better. I did have to pass the loaded rounds back into the die without the seater installed to smooth out the mouth. Worked great at 35 yards. Need to load more and try further out.

First two:

Next two:

(the 2nd right barrel was my fault)

Barrel flats:


Watertable:


Edited by CJF (24/10/23 11:41 PM)


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CJF
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Watson (1906) vs Webley (1905) screw grip rifles [Re: CJF]
      #380305 - 24/10/23 11:03 AM

Thought the engraving was super similar on my Watson and this Webley:

Watson:

Watson:


Webley:


Edited by CJF (24/10/23 11:44 AM)


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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
Posts: 220
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: Huvius]
      #380306 - 24/10/23 01:14 PM

Quote:

If you like, I can swage paper patch bullets of any weight that, depending on the paper, can be wrapped to .366 or more.
I use these at 190gr in my Leeson single shot and it seems to like them.
Alternately, this would hold true for any .358” cast bullet.




I need to try again with patching my .358" lead 170 grain bullets (of which I have a ton). When I did this earlier this week, using credit card receipt paper, the patches are neat and tight, but the resulting bullet is too large (0.370?) as I wasn't very scientific about the length of my patches. I'll have to re-read Curl's document on patching and actually calculate what I need. That said, receipt paper gives a really tight and neat patch!

If I can't get those smaller bullets to go, I'll look to source larger diameter (and heavier) lead pills to try naked or patched.


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93x64mm
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Re: Watson (1906) vs Webley (1905) screw grip rifles [Re: CJF]
      #380331 - 25/10/23 07:44 AM

Quote:

Thought the engraving was super similar on my Watson and this Webley:

Watson:

Watson:


Webley:





Now that's my idea of subtle engraving - just beautiful!


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CJF
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Posts: 220
Loc: United States
Re: Watson (1906) vs Webley (1905) screw grip rifles [Re: 93x64mm]
      #380416 - 28/10/23 10:37 AM

I will ultimately need a cast bullet to practice, and potentially hunt, as my stash of RWS 193gr bullets is limited and shared with a 9.3x72r double. This is a shame, as they are super easy to reload since they have a mid-bullet band that stands proud of the base. I've been able to expand the case mouths enough to accept the smaller base diameter and then press and tap the bullets home, finishing with a pass through the seater with the central plug removed to smooth things out. These worked consistently at 50 yards and shorter. I haven't tried them further out.

I also tried 2 loads with purchased swaged lead bullets.

The first were naked 0.361" 145gr LRN bullets from Buffalo Arms that I got for my Alex Henry single($24.59 for 50). They weren't great in the Henry beyond 50 yard (likely too small), so I tried them in the Watson. They performed well enough at 35yds so I tried further out. We don't have steel at 100yrds so I tried the 200yd plates and was pleased to hit them 50% of the time for 6 shots. I'm happy with that given I am finding elevation to be the big issue I'm having with the Watson's iron sights. Not blaming the gun - I just need to practice with that wide shallow V and tiny front bead. I have only 8 loaded rounds left using the 50 bullets I bought and I won't replace them as I had much better luck with paper patched 0.358" 170gr LRN bullets from Bear Creek Supply. I bought a box of 500 of those for $50. They are terrible unpatched in the Watson and AH, but great patched in the Watson. I'll try them next in the AH. I'm hopeful about using these patched in all 3 of my 360EX rifles (there's also a GE Lewis hammer gun from the 1870s) after I get the Watson ready for next month's hunt. Bear Creek also offers a 180gr option at .358 and say they have a .361" 200gr coming soon, which sounds even better.

The patched bullets still reflect my newbie status as a patcher, but I'm getting better. Overall I need smaller finished bullet diameters, so I'll need shorter patches, and I have to make them stop further from the nose of the bullet as none of these rifles have long leades and I had some trouble closing the action on some rounds unless I peeled off some patch material.

It was a pleasant surprise that even rounds where the patch was cut off above the case neck by their final die pass performed OK. For patching paper I used gas station credit card receipt paper from refueling on our summer road trip. I will also try 9lb onion skin from Buffalo Arms.

So I'm planning on hunting next month with the jacketed flat nose RWS bullets, but I'll be exploring ways to make the 170gr LRN Bear Creek Supply bullets work via patching for use going forward.

All that said, I am very grateful for the advice on moulds above. So far, I have only tried casting for my 300 Sherwood and that worked fine. I may explore that further for these 360 rifles.

Pictures below -- first target shows the first pair of 170gr LRN patched 0.358" bullets at 35yds. The second shows the longer rifle range with a zoom to the 200yd plates.






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