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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
Posts: 220
Loc: United States
Watson Bros 360EX double
      #379976 - 12/10/23 04:44 AM

UPS dropped off an eagerly awaited package today; a Watson Brothers double rifle in 360EX.

Seller's description:
Watson Bros SxS Double Rifle .360 Exp C&R Nice! W/H&H Case & Original Ammo

At auction is a Watson Brothers box lock double rifle in .360 Express caliber (.360 2 ¼”). Barrel length is 26”, and S/N is 135XX.

Original condition is very fine, most of the original blued finish remains to the barrels with no rust or pitting present. The receiver retains much of its original finish as well, showing obvious original case colors, with no rust or pitting present. The stock set shows no chips, cracks, or damage beyond some scattered light handling wear and few minor scratches, the worst of which is a scratch just above the triggers on the right side as shown. Original butt plate is present and free from damage. The bores are clean, strong, and shiny. Mechanical function is excellent, lockup is nice and tight, and the rifle remains fully fit to fire as was determined by our gunsmith. Rear sight is marked 150 yds, and there’s a 250 yard leaf as well.

Included in the sale is an original period Holland & Holland leather wrapped gun case which has been the storage case for this rifle for at least the past 60 years. Two leather slings are included as well. Case condition is old and worn, though solid.

Also includes several boxes of desirable original period .360 Express 2 ¼” ammunition. The following rare and hard to find ammo is available: 4 full boxes of clean Kynoch .360 190gr smokeless ammo (Imperial Chemical Industries Ltd London marked), one full box Kynoch .360 Nitro ammo (Nobel Industries Ltd London marked), and two RARE paper boxes of black powder .360 rounds by D. Fraser & Co. Edinburgh, Scotland. There’s also a full box of Kynoch (Nobel marked) empties, two additional loose empties, and 5 assorted loose live rounds.

This medium-game rifle by Watson Bros features gorgeous hand engraving, original finish and case colors, truly a work of art. A very nice, original, and highly collectible example of English craftsmanship at its very finest. Watson Bros is still in business today!

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #379977 - 12/10/23 04:45 AM







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degoins
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #379979 - 12/10/23 05:51 AM

WOW......WHAT A LITTLE BEAUTY!!!

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: degoins]
      #379981 - 12/10/23 07:11 AM

Thank you! I'm excited about using it this fall for white tail deer. And happy that I already reload for 360EX.

I'm taking some pictures outdoors to see if I can better get the colors and condition to show. Putting a little gun oil on the metal too.

Right now the only thing that disappoints is that the rear trigger has at times stayed fully depressed when opening the gun, and then that hammer doesn't cock. Pulling the trigger manually forward and then closing and re-opening the barrels cocks that side. I'm guessing this is just grime inside. If this needs a strip and clean, I would welcome recommendations for someone who can leave the screw slots as tight and new as they found them, as right now, they look new. If it didn't seem like sacrilege, I wish I could just shoot some spray action cleaner in the trigger slot and left firing pin hole, but I'm afraid to do any damage that way (and how would you lubricate inside after such a spray?)

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93x64mm
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: degoins]
      #379982 - 12/10/23 07:12 AM

Quote:

WOW......WHAT A LITTLE BEAUTY!!!


Couldn't put it better - what a true gem you have there CJF.
Hope to see a range report on this one day too!

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #379984 - 12/10/23 07:22 AM











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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #379985 - 12/10/23 07:24 AM















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prairie_ghost
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #379989 - 12/10/23 10:50 AM

Interesting barrel crowns. Is that a Webley screwgrip action? Beautiful little rifle. I would love to stalk an elk with it.

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: prairie_ghost]
      #379993 - 12/10/23 11:46 AM

Quote:

Interesting barrel crowns. Is that a Webley screwgrip action? Beautiful little rifle. I would love to stalk an elk with it.



Yes, it is a Webley screw grip. I'm curious as to when that patent expired. This rifle has "patent" engraved around the top lever, presumably something that would have stopped after patent expiration. I understand that Webley (& Scott?) would have made the barreled action to be finished by Watson Brothers. I have ordered the rifles history from Watson tonight and will report any details when that arrives.

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grandveneur
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380008 - 12/10/23 11:43 PM

Webley screw grip patent is from 1882 and normally the patents are valid for 20 years.

When was the rifle built ?

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3DogMike
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: grandveneur]
      #380009 - 12/10/23 11:56 PM

Pending a reply from Watson Bros records I will dig my Nigel Brown book out to see if I can narrow down a date on this one.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: grandveneur]
      #380012 - 13/10/23 12:49 AM

Quote:

Webley screw grip patent is from 1882 and normally the patents are valid for 20 years.

When was the rifle built ?



Based on barrel address (29 Old Bond Street London) the rifle was made between 1895 and 1929/1930. A 500NE Watson double, #13595, sold at Morphy sold last year -- that rifle was described as circa 1907. Mine is #13566. Strangely, I also found #13557 from a 2001 auction at Butterfield & Dunning that had a 7 Bury Street address, which should be after 29 Old Bond. Not sure if that's a re-barrel but that would be an earlier serial number at a much later address (post 1935.)

If the screw grip patent expired in 1902 and my rifle is still marked 'patent', then I would expect it is between 1895 and 1902. Which would be consistent the rifle's light weight and probable NfB loading (based on the vintage ammo stashed away by it's previous meticulous owner.)

Would welcome any help on dates pending a reply from Watson's.

Edited by CJF (13/10/23 08:24 AM)

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380015 - 13/10/23 01:03 AM

Thanks Mike. Looking forward to see if Nigel Brown's book has info.

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3DogMike
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380016 - 13/10/23 01:43 AM

Quote:

Thanks Mike. Looking forward to see if Nigel Brown's book has info.



Nigel Brown's book was not a great deal of help as the publicly available serial numbers are only for shotguns, Watson Bros numbered their rifles in separate serial number blocks and the rifle & handgun records are not public domain.
The only hint is that rifle #11280 was made in 1883, so yours is 2286 numbers away. Late 1890's maybe….Quen Sabé?

Be interesting to hear what the actual records details are.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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grandveneur
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380021 - 13/10/23 04:48 AM

From design of the rifle, I also believe that this weapon was rather built before the WWI, but black powder rifles were supposedly manufactured on request until the twenties. In India there were still customers.

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rigbymauser
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: grandveneur]
      #380022 - 13/10/23 05:25 AM

Beautiful petit gun. Congratulations.

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: rigbymauser]
      #380027 - 13/10/23 08:29 AM

Thank you rigbymauser and grandveneur!

Mike - I agree no earlier than 1895 based on Watson address.

Lastly, an abbreviated range report - I was out at range today to test a .361" 145gr LRN load for a single Alex Henry takedown falling block, also in 360EX. I tried that load in the Watson...not a good fit. I also tried 3 rounds I'd loaded earlier using heavier jacked .358" 185gr JHP. Same powder charge. This heavier load with jacketed bullets was much better. More testing ahead. And slugging the bore.

Edited by CJF (13/10/23 08:53 AM)

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93x64mm
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380042 - 13/10/23 10:13 PM

The heavier bullets sounds like you're getting somewhere at last CJF.
Graeme Wright used a technique of expanding a smaller diameter bullet to a larger size, this might be an option if the bullet weight is correct & the groove diameter of the barrel is larger than the projectile's size.

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DarylS
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: 93x64mm]
      #380047 - 14/10/23 04:10 AM

Ross Seyfried also wrapped slightly undersized jacketed bullets with Teflon tape to bring the size up a bit. As well, those more than a thou or so, used paper.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: DarylS]
      #380053 - 14/10/23 07:41 AM

I know in the paper patch type loads the lands cut the paper, I guess if the teflon was the same amount of thickness then it would as well - whatever was at hand & it worked I guess!
I think (I don't have his book handy at present) in Graeme's example it was too much to do so, so the bullet was put in a die & hammered down so it spread out evenly.

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DarylS
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: 93x64mm]
      #380054 - 14/10/23 09:25 AM

I first heard about Teflon taping, many years ago. Come to think about it, same with Ross' process with paper & that might have been 25 years ago.
Swaging will work, but much depends on the dies used and their hoop strength.
That is why Corbin's dies & presses are so expensive (perhaps according to Corbin).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: DarylS]
      #380072 - 15/10/23 11:48 AM

Well I heard back from Watson Brothers. My guess had been between 1895 and 1907 based on barrel address (29 Old Bond Street London, where Watsons move to in 1895) and 1907 based on another gun, numbered 29 after mine, being attributed to 1907. Further, the patent for the Webley expired 1902, so presumably before then as mine is still marked "Patent" around the top lever.

Watson's provided a copy of their ledger book and the file name of their image referenced my gun's serial number and the year 1906. So while they've been a bit oblique, I believe they are saying this was made in 1906, or at least sold then. I've asked for direct confirmation of the date, but in the meantime, below is what they shared as text and an image.



What I'm seeing is a 360 2 1/4" double ("A & T" or Arthur and Thomas Watson?) with a lever forearm and standing rear site with leaf, made by Webley. It was a 'Spec price" of 14.0.0. Customer was Profitlich.

In contract, the rifle before mine was a 450/400 3 1/4" case cordite double with Krupp barrels for 17.10.0. The gun after mine was also a 450/300 3 1/4" double, with many difficult to decipher markings for 25.0.0. So I suspect my little rifle was a bargain then as now.

I'm hoping Watson's provides more than just an image of the order book. The only other histories I've ever ordered were for my pair of Dickson double rifles, and those were amazing, with pictures of the ledger entries, but also commentary on the purchaser and context around what volume and mix Dicksons was producing that year.

Edited by CJF (15/10/23 11:50 AM)

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3DogMike
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380073 - 15/10/23 12:12 PM

Hi Chris,
The referenced “A&T” likely means Adams & Tate the barrel makers. You may find a very small 'A&T" stamp on the barrels ahead of the flats and behind the forend hanger.

I do hope you manage to get a bit more expanded information from Watson Brothers. As you mention, some of the other gunmakers (Rigby, Hollands, Dickson, Westley Richards, William Evans) are very good at providing extensive information. A couple others are not quite so forthcoming.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380105 - 16/10/23 08:28 AM

Quote: "The referenced “A&T” likely means Adams & Tate the barrel makers. You may find a very small 'A&T" stamp on the barrels ahead of the flats and behind the forend hanger..."


Mike - do you know if A&T stopped marking their barrels at some point? I have a mid-1880s 450BPE Alex Henry double with super clear A&T markings on both barrels where you describe, but there's nothing on this Watson in front of the barrel flats (or anywhere else).

Edited by CJF (16/10/23 08:30 AM)

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fraserdouble
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double [Re: CJF]
      #380116 - 16/10/23 07:05 PM

I think that reference in the ledger is actually A&D for Anson and Deeley.

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