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CJF
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Reged: 07/08/17
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London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle
#379690 - 28/09/23 09:13 AM

A quick question for you proof mark experts. Is it true that the absence of either of “Nitro Proof” or a scimitar over “NP” for rifles proofed in 1896 or later means that sporting rifle isn’t nitro proofed?

I’m looking at a maker whose serial numbers are not published with DOM. And there’s no nitro mark on it. Boxlock double. London proofs.

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Huvius
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: CJF]
#379691 - 28/09/23 10:27 AM

I think there were nitro proofed rifles in that period without either of those stamps.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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grandveneur
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: Huvius]
#379695 - 28/09/23 03:14 PM

The English Proof Houses are the oldest in the world and have also been testing weapons without interruption since their founding.

A weapon proofed in GB with NC powder would normally have the mark NP or even the entire written word Nitro Proof.

For this reason, a rifle that has been proofed in GB and does not bear the typical marks is not to be described as nitro proofed and is therefore to be regarded as just a BP rifle.

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3DogMike
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: Huvius]
#379703 - 29/09/23 01:38 AM

Quote:

I think there were nitro proofed rifles in that period without either of those stamps.

This is, to my knowledge, a true statement.

The NP with Scimitar came along in 1904, the "NITRO PROOF" came along in 1896. ("NITRO PROOF" mostly seen on shotguns?)

That said, after 1896 and up to 1904 not all rifles were marked this way. There are rifles in my collection from that time frame that are marked with the appropriate Cordite charge and bullet weight (Express Rifles) but are not marked "NITRO PROOF".
I think that prior to 1896 Proof was Proof and calibres such as the .303 British (1891) were just assumed to be in proof with period ammunition.

Having said that, "if" the rifle or gun in question is not marked either with the proof marks or Cordite charge and bullet weight then it cannot be assumed to be proved for or with Cordite or other smokeless powder.

Interestingly enough, when Cordite (Modite/Rifleite/etc) appeared on the scene in 1889, and the Cordite .303 British Mk1 loading in 1891, the Proof Houses for some time continued to use Black Powder for proof loads. They simply adjusted powder and bullet weight to achieve the increased pressure of smokeless.
- Mike

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"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
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85lc
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
#379705 - 29/09/23 03:09 AM

3DogMike,

Great input. I always thoughht that British firearms after 1896 that were proofed for nitro cartridges were stamped either NP or Nitro Proof, depending if before or after 1904. I did not know that the firearm may just have the cordite charge & bullet weight.

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RB

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3DogMike
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: 85lc]
#379710 - 29/09/23 04:52 AM

My W&C Scott .500/.450 NE from 1899, note there is no "Nitro Proof" stamp.
This early date proofed with the "tropical" load of 70 grains Cordite.

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
#379713 - 29/09/23 07:15 AM

Thank you all. I’ve been trying researching a potential acquisition and like what I see, but was unsure of the actual original load. It is marked only with the caliber and ‘EX’, and no nitro proof marks. Based on the maker’s address it is no older than 1895. If it is BP or NfB that would be ok. A true Nitro proof would increase value and that’s what I’m trying to determine.

Again, thank you.

Edited by CJF (29/09/23 07:49 AM)

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Huvius
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: CJF]
#379733 - 30/09/23 01:21 AM

Quote:

Thank you all. I’ve been trying researching a potential acquisition and like what I see, but was unsure of the actual original load. It is marked only with the caliber and ‘EX’, and no nitro proof marks. Based on the maker’s address it is no older than 1895. If it is BP or NfB that would be ok. A true Nitro proof would increase value and that’s what I’m trying to determine.

Again, thank you.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
iirc, my 360 Fraser falling block was simply stamped "360EX" (similarly to your description) and was chambered in a cordite cartridge. There never was a 400/360 black powder load to my knowledge.

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CJF
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: Huvius]
#379798 - 03/10/23 04:22 AM

Mike & Huvius,

Looks like you have rifles marked 450EX and 360EX, and neither is in what I thought was the most prevalent chambering for those markings (450bpe or nitro vs .500/450. Or 360BPE or nitro vs 400/360.)

I really need to stop assuming that an express proof marking tells more than just the bore. I guess it refers to the class of firearm being proofed, if I read correctly the pamphlet Mike kindly shared.

Regards,
Chris

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85lc
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: CJF]
#379805 - 03/10/23 12:39 PM

My little Alexander Henry 360BPE is marked 360 EX

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RB

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CJF
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Re: London rifle proofs for black powder vs nitro rifle [Re: 85lc]
#380227 - 21/10/23 02:48 AM

I started this thread while researching the 360EX Watson double now in hand and with its own thread here. That rifle arrived with vintage ammo collected by its previous owner -- almost all of that ammo was nitro-for-black LRN copper tubed.

Watsons has since supplied their ledger entry for #13566. It was sold in 1906. The rifles immediately before and after mine were 450/400 3.25" case, with one including "cordite" in the entry and the other (like mine) with no mention of cordite.

I am approaching my rifle assuming it was not nitro proofed and working on NfB loads.

Thanks again for everyone's help here.

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