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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373571 - 28/01/23 09:26 PM

Quote:


Excellent post and some evidence.

Bloody Americans getting it wrong! Ha ha. Joke.

But this Stoegers Catalogue of 1939 shows some evidence of where the nomenclature came from.




Perhaps we 'bloody Americans' got it wrong twice?









The '.275 Rigby'/ 7mm Mauser 'High Velocity' designation reminds me of this:







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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #373576 - 29/01/23 02:32 AM

The 9.5x57 was known by both I believe. Or not?

Maybe these old USA catalogues reveal source of errors in naming?

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John aka NitroX

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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373605 - 29/01/23 11:06 AM

Look, not meaning to be argumentative, but "errors"?
Really?

Manton's of Calcutta in 1925 and Stoegers of New York in 1939 are not going to use advertising nomenclature on which ultimately their sales and hence profits are dependent, unless that advertising is instantly recognizable to the vast majority of their potential customers.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
      #373608 - 29/01/23 03:26 PM

American consumers have long been more "brand" orientated.
For example Coco Cola, Winchester, Remington, Standard Oil etc.

".275 bore" is not a marketable brand.

".275 Rigby" is.

But so is "Rigby .275 bore".

Just semantics.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373612 - 29/01/23 08:03 PM

Quote:

The 9.5x57 was known by both I believe. Or not?

Maybe these old USA catalogues reveal source of errors in naming?




The 9.5X57 MS has been marketed / referred to by several 'names' over the decades. Case, projectile, and overall dimensions of 9.5X57MS and .375RNE are identical.

Look at loading data from catalogs / references of the 1910s, 20s, 30s, however, and you'll notice that '9.5X57MS' and '.375RNE' have different powder loads and related ballistics.

Note the example previously posted (from an British ICI catalog) shows the MS with 45 grains Cordite, 43 grains for the RNE.

Other references:












Westley Richards, incidentally, also had their own 'express' variant:



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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #373613 - 29/01/23 08:51 PM

Quote:

maybe kynoch download the .275 rigby for the use in hot climate




That was, from what I've read, the (presumed) reason for .375RNE (Rimless Nitro Express) being loaded with 2 grains less Cordite than 9.5X57MS (Mannlicher Schoenauer) per British references of the pre WW2 period; the presumption being that the 9.5X57 was intended for use on the European continent, the RNE for Africa, India, and such.

Every pre WW2 British proofed M1910 MS that I have seen (including my own cased Take Down Model) is proofed at "CORDITE 43 - 270 Gr MAX", the load for RNE. The 9.5X57MS load was 45 grains with same 270 grain projectile.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
      #373614 - 29/01/23 09:14 PM

Quote:

Image below showing labelling of the lid end of the same old Rigby ammo box with ammunition referred to as .275 Mauser not .275 Rigby. Pity cartridge head-stamps can't be seen to confirm exactly what nomenclature was applied to the ammunition. I'm betting most likely 7x57 or in keeping with the age, 7mm Mauser.





Or this, for the 'Rigby No. 2' double rifle:







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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #373626 - 30/01/23 11:52 AM

That is a perfect example as the flanged Rigby No2 Magnum cartridge was developed by Rigby for double or single shot rifles, so the ammo is correctly head-stamped.
Would be good to see if there are any examples of old Kynoch ammo with a head-stamp of "Rigby .275", not just .275 Mauser or 7mm Mauser


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Huvius
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #373628 - 30/01/23 12:13 PM

Regarding the 9.5MS vs. the Westley 375 Rimless, I wonder if the 375 Rimless charge of 43grs of Cordite could be a match to the European load of 45grs of flake powder?
My Mauser rifle is proofed at 43grs. Cordite, 270gr bullet, which is the same as the MS British proof marks just as Rothhammer1 notes above.

Also, I've read some thought that Kynoch loaded the MS load a little faster to get the imported MS rifles to shoot to the sights. That could be possible I guess as Kynoch wouldn't want the many English buyers of these rifles to be dissatisfied with the Kynoch ammunition.

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chuck375
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #376656 - 12/05/23 07:56 AM

So please explain what the difference is between the 275 Rigby and the 7x57 Mauser?

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Huvius
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: chuck375]
      #376657 - 12/05/23 10:57 AM

Quote:

So please explain what the difference is between the 275 Rigby and the 7x57 Mauser?




Case wise, dimensionally, there is no difference.
Brass, dies, etc. - all the same.
The “Rigby” moniker is derived from their specific loading of the same cartridge.
The 275 Rigby was loaded with a lighter bullet and higher velocity than the standard 7X57 Mauser.
What was it, 140gr. Bullet for the Rigby and 170 something for the standard Mauser cartridge?

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chuck375
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #376658 - 12/05/23 12:08 PM

Thanks.

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LRF
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: chuck375]
      #376663 - 12/05/23 08:54 PM

But "275 Rigby" just sounds way cooler then "7x57" which sounds more like the dimensions of the "Mo-Bile Home" many call home, unless your luck and have an "Extra wide"

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chuck375
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: LRF]
      #376880 - 22/05/23 04:36 AM

That's what I thought lol.

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"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #376891 - 22/05/23 03:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So please explain what the difference is between the 275 Rigby and the 7x57 Mauser?




Case wise, dimensionally, there is no difference.
Brass, dies, etc. - all the same.
The “Rigby” moniker is derived from their specific loading of the same cartridge.
The 275 Rigby was loaded with a lighter bullet and higher velocity than the standard 7X57 Mauser.
What was it, 140gr. Bullet for the Rigby and 170 something for the standard Mauser cartridge?




According to some sources, anti-German sentiment also came into play when Rigby came up with their high velocity 140gr loading for the 7x57 or 7mm Mauser cartridge, their thinking was the name Rigby would be more palatable to the British stiff upper lip. Whether this was a factor or not who knows.

Apart from recent American loadings with a .275 Rigby headstamp on the cartridges to suit the vanity of some, original cartridges headstamped .275 Rigby seem to be non-existent or a rarity at least. Searches come up with plenty of old cartridge boxes labelled ".275 cartridges for the Rigby Rifle", or similar notation, but no images of the cartridges to prove there was actual ammunition produced with the definitive .275 Rigby headstamp.

In regards the heavier bullet loading for the 7x57/7mm Mauser/.275 cartridges, there is some confusion in this area too. Bell and Corbett were great exponents of the .275 cartridge in what ever moniker it may have been and in both their cases it is often said they used the 175gr bullet. Kynoch however used 173gr bullets in their heavy 7mm loading. Most of the German loadings were probably with the 175gr bullet but I would have thought Bell at least would have been using Kynoch ammunition. I think even he himself mentions somewhere in his writing his 7mm rifle ammunition with 175gr bullets.


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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
      #376892 - 22/05/23 08:08 PM

Quote:

In regards the heavier bullet loading for the 7x57/7mm Mauser/.275 cartridges, there is some confusion in this area too. Bell and Corbett were great exponents of the .275 cartridge in what ever moniker it may have been and in both their cases it is often said they used the 175gr bullet. Kynoch however used 173gr bullets in their heavy 7mm loading. Most of the German loadings were probably with the 175gr bullet but I would have thought Bell at least would have been using Kynoch ammunition. I think even he himself mentions somewhere in his writing his 7mm rifle ammunition with 175gr bullets.



Bell at least wrote he used German DWM, Karlsruhe, “solids” exclusively in his 7x57/ .275 Rigby elephant rifle that “was never polluted with a soft nose bullet”. DWM listed this old load with a 11.2 g = 173 gr bullet and 2,4 g = 37 gr R5 powder for a mv of 700 m/s = 2300 fps from a 65 cm = 25.6” barrel.


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JHeath
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #378672 - 16/08/23 12:36 AM

Quote:

Rifles engraved as Rigby .275 Bore, effectively the same thing.

What does Kynoch ammo boxes say?




If the British learned anything it should say ".275 Boer".


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JHeath
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #378674 - 16/08/23 12:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970. . . .

Bloody Americans getting it wrong! Ha ha. Joke.

But this Stoegers Catalogue of 1939 shows some evidence of where the nomenclature came from.




Not so fast. Who mis-labeled it from metric in the first place? ;^]


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JHeath
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
      #378675 - 16/08/23 01:15 AM

I re-barreled a Persian/Brno action that came to me as a $300 8mm stutzen with Timmey trigger and Lyman sight, changed it to 24" barrel. .

I stumbled upon a $20 used stock with Prince of Wales grip that looked vaguely Corbett so I'm working down the forearm and will solder on a barrel swivel stud.

But in my American ignorance I confused ".275 Rigby" with ".257 Roberts".

So no tiger hunting for me and my $320 rifle. I'll look pretty silly hunting mule deer in my pith helmet.

This thread is the only valid argument I have heard in favor of the metric system.


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DORLEAC
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: JHeath]
      #378676 - 16/08/23 02:06 AM

Almost all of the .275 RIGBY barrelled action rifles left Oberndorf as standard in the white 7x57 Mauser, the majority on intermediate length systems.
All those that have passed through my hands bore the Mauser factory serial number as well as the normal Oberndorf proof stamps for the 7x57 round.
It is certain that RIGBY had a commercial interest in baptising the initial cartridge in .275 Rigby in order to escape the anti-Germanic feeling of the time.
Note however that the twist rate remained the standard 1/8.66" designed to stabilise the 173 grain bullet.
There were also at the time several lighter loads, even military, such as the 139 grain for Brazil, the 140 grain for the Chilean Mauser 1912, the 142 grain for Uruguay or the 155 grain for Mexico.
So nothing new under the sun except for a nice commercial success that still lasts today.
The fact remains that the 7x57 Mauser is a fabulous cartridge, very balanced and superbly efficient.

DORLEAC
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DORLEAC]
      #378677 - 16/08/23 02:12 AM

Quote:


The fact remains that the 7x57 Mauser is a fabulous cartridge, very balanced and superbly efficient.






A classic remains a classic.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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