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buckstix
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Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22
      #377984 - 17/07/23 12:44 PM

So here's a strange one that joined the collection .. Kettner DR for Big & small game. 11mm & 22 lr.




--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1024
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #377998 - 18/07/23 03:32 AM

buckstix,
The cartridge inthe trap looks like a Mauser A Head. Is the large caliber an 11.15x60?
Interesting calibers, looks great for either moose or mice.

--------------------
RB

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4178
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Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: 85lc]
      #377999 - 18/07/23 06:02 AM

Your rifle looks superb there mate!
The finish is almost like new.
Like 85lc stated 'looks great for either moose or mice'.
Certainly will do everything in between!

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #378000 - 18/07/23 07:36 AM

Hello

I won't get the rifle in hand until later in the week. Then I'll add more pics and check the caliber.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Nemo
.224 member


Reged: 16/06/23
Posts: 25
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378002 - 18/07/23 01:03 PM

Cool gun!
Be interesting to see what the actual ballistics turn out to be.
Did they manage to get the 2 barrels to shoot to the same place and at what distance?
Or is the scope only useful for one of them.
Regulation is a tough enough business without having 2 such wildly different calibers.
That may be one of the heavier 22s in existence so barrel movement will be slight.
Sorry for all the questions.
I am kind of a DR noob and still learning a lot about the ballistics (among other things).

--------------------
Nemo -- Everything 44

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
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Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: Nemo]
      #378005 - 19/07/23 06:12 AM

I'll have more info when I get the gun in hand later this week.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378041 - 22/07/23 02:31 PM

Hello All,

I got the rifle in hand today - it turns its NOT a 22 lr .... its 22 Hornet x 11x60 caliber.

It weighs 8 pounds 10.5 ounces - 25-1/4" barrels - Both Triggers are SET Triggers - Buffalo Horn Grooved Butt Plate - Nikon Prostaff Scope with BDC reticle - Clock Hand Cocking Indicatore - Manual Safety (non-automato) - All Original Finish both Wood and Metal.

Tomorrow I take it afield and test it.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1791
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378042 - 23/07/23 12:55 AM

As the land diameter of the barrels was still given with the gauge number (lead balls to the pound) 62.78 = .420 - .429”, the rifle was made and originally proofed by the Suhl proofhouse between 1893 and 1911. It had both barrels proofed for a 11 mm x60R bp cartridge, either the 11.15x60R Mauser M71 bottlenecked case or the straight taper 11x60R LK “Drillingspatrone”. In the late 1920s the left barrel was relinered in Suhl and duly reproofed for the 5.6x35R Vierling, crown/I = Instandsetzung = repair proofmark. Post-WW2 the rifle was refurbished and restocked, probably in America.
The German 5.6x35R Vierling case was the same as he old blackpowder .22 Winchester Center Fire case, but loaded with smokeless to almost .22 Hornet ballistics. But when Winchester introduced the Hornet as a factory load, they gave the case a thicker rim and a slightly different shoulder to prevent the Hornet loads being chambered in their old weak action blackpowder rifles. Some “generous” Vierling chambers will take some European Hornet brands as is. Many other vierling chambers were rechambered slightly to accept Hornet factory loads. Otherwise you will have to reduce rim thickness of Hornet cases and resize them in custom 5.6x35R Vierling dies.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: kuduae]
      #378049 - 23/07/23 12:06 PM

Hello kuduae,

Thank you for the info.

Here is a shooting update. I custom loaded both 22 Hornet ammo and 11mm Mauser ammo. (loads are shown on the targets) I fired the right 11mm barrel first, followed by the 22 hornet barrel. I fired 5 shots each barrel to zero the scope. After the 22 Hornet barrel was zero at 50 yds, I fired a 3 shot group with the 11mm barrel that went into a 1 inch group. Although left-to-right was good, the 11mm group was 10 inches low.

And now I understand the reason for the Nikon Prostaff Scope. The reticle is BDC = "Bullet-Drop-Compesator" that consists of a series of small aiming circles, below center, along the vertical wire. These circles are for reference "hold-over" for various ranges beyond initial zero. The aiming method I used is shown to the right of the target pictured below. Although the aiming was different for the 2 calibers, its easy to remember and use when hunting.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1024
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378063 - 24/07/23 02:24 AM

buckstix
Nice shooting with your new DR and good adjusting for the different calibers. .
I am interested in 43 Mauser loads so if you don't mind sharing, please list it. I see you used a 343 Helm SN - excuse my ignornce but what is that bullet?

--------------------
RB

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
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Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: 85lc]
      #378067 - 24/07/23 02:53 AM

Quote:

buckstix
I am interested in 43 Mauser loads so if you don't mind sharing, please list it. I see you used a 343 Helm SN - what is that bullet?

Hello 85lc

The 343 HELM is a half jacket .440 dia SN (Soft Nose) bullet that I swage myself. See the updated posted target for loads.

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Nemo
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Reged: 16/06/23
Posts: 25
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378072 - 24/07/23 05:20 PM

I hope you are happy with those groups cause I sure would be!
I do get a vicarious pleasure watching a reloading expert breathe new life into a ~125 year old rifle.
I got a DR partially as a reloading challenge to regulate non-standard bullets but you have shown me a whole 'nother level. Thanks!

Last question: did you use a filler in that 11mm load?
Modeling your cartridge in QuickLOAD (with a fair helping of salt) shows a peak piezo pressure of
around 10.5 kpsi and a fill ratio of 45% (using H4198).
H4198/AR2207 happens to be the most versatile powder for loading the 444 which is my narrow minded focus.

--------------------
Nemo -- Everything 44

Edited by Nemo (24/07/23 05:26 PM)

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: Nemo]
      #378074 - 24/07/23 09:25 PM

Quote:

Last question: did you use a filler in that 11mm load?
Modeling your cartridge in QuickLOAD (with a fair helping of salt) shows a peak piezo pressure of
around 10.5 kpsi and a fill ratio of 45% (using H4198).


I use foam backing rod for loading "all" calibers when the case is less than 90% full.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Nemo
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Reged: 16/06/23
Posts: 25
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378084 - 25/07/23 06:09 PM

Thanks for the information.

I have done a fair amount of experimentation with fillers starting with reduced "gallery" loads in the 44 magnum.
At one time I was interested in finding the lowest velocity load that would be accurate and still leave the barrel.
I ended up with 4.5 gr. PB and filled the case with GREX shotgun buffer compound.
That's still one of my favorite fillers although "out of print" for years now.
It's very light, somewhat compressable, and can be metered thru a powder measure or weighed on the scale.
I also use it in my 44 magnum equivalent reduced load in the 444 Marlin.
24 gr. 2400 + 14 gr. GREX for 1740 fps with a .44 240 gr. JHP
Other materials I tried that I had laying around were case tumbling media, both corn cob and ground walnut shells.
The corn cobs worked well as it also is light and compressable.
The walnut shells are much denser but meter very nicely.
Upon being toasted they produce a smell very like that of a certain well known recreational herb.
This caused some sharp looks at the range.
I also noticed the bores were very clean and shiny and wondered if I was over polishing them.
Gave up on the walnuts.
Also tried and abandoned:

PuffLon: This is VERY fine .. like dust and has some moly in it.
Quite the PITA to handle, measure, and dispense without making a giant mess.
The slightest breeze, like breathing anywhere near it, blows it all over and you can never really clean it all up.

Toilet paper: This is cheap and easy to use but is shredded and blown out in front of the gun leaving a big mess on the floor of indoor ranges.
Range master not happy.
Outdoors OK but the security of the powder is not great as the "seal" isn't perfect.

Yet to try:
Foam earplugs. The ones I have are open cell like the Kynoch foam but way cheaper.
They are also the right size (a little big) and have a flat base that should hold the powder in place well.

Your foam backing rod which I understand is closed cell.
I'll have to pick some up. Looks very easy to use.
Thanks again for pointing me in that direction.
I have a couple of other 444 projects that look to need a filler including regulating a 240 gr JHP in the double rifle using 2400 or IMR4227.

--------------------
Nemo -- Everything 44

Edited by Nemo (25/07/23 06:22 PM)

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: Nemo]
      #378085 - 25/07/23 08:45 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the information.



Your foam backing rod which I understand is closed cell.
I'll have to pick some up. Looks very easy to use.
Thanks again for pointing me in that direction.


Hello,
Backing rod is "open" cell and comes in 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", and 1" diameter rope. In most cases it weighs only 1 to 3 grains, and "exact" cut length is not a factor. I just eye ball it and snip it to length with a scissors. You can buy it in most hardware stores in 10 foot to 100 foot lengths.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378086 - 25/07/23 10:10 PM

Well done Bucksticks!
You certainly have a magic touch when doing these oddball ones!
Yes H4198/AR2207 certainly has great potential to perform NFB loads, your results speak for themselves - bloody marvellous!
My question now to you now is how do you calculate the starting point for this powder mate for sny given cartridge?

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #378089 - 26/07/23 12:26 AM

Quote:

Well done Bucksticks!My question now to you now is how do you calculate the starting point for this powder mate for any given cartridge?

Hello 93x64mm,

Many times I use data from several books like; Cartridges of the World, and Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. If I can't find the exact cartridge I find something similar and start low. I mostly use I4198 and AR5744 for NFB and reduced loads. I stay very conservative - I have plenty of magnums for maximum loads.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Nemo
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Reged: 16/06/23
Posts: 25
Loc: Wisconsin
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378091 - 26/07/23 06:43 AM

Quote:


Backing rod is "open" cell and comes in 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", and 1" diameter rope. In most cases it weighs only 1 to 3 grains, and "exact" cut length is not a factor. I just eye ball it and snip it to length with a scissors. You can buy it in most hardware stores in 10 foot to 100 foot lengths.


Found it at the nearest hardware store (Menards).
They call it caulk backer rod and 1/2" x 30' is $4.
Good deal! Thanks again.

--------------------
Nemo -- Everything 44

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378095 - 26/07/23 10:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well done Bucksticks!My question now to you now is how do you calculate the starting point for this powder mate for any given cartridge?

Hello 93x64mm,

Many times I use data from several books like; Cartridges of the World, and Donnelly's Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. If I can't find the exact cartridge I find something similar and start low. I mostly use I4198 and AR5744 for NFB and reduced loads. I stay very conservative - I have plenty of magnums for maximum loads.



For some reason I have this niggly feeling that there is some formula thrown about that has been used for H4198/AR2207 for reduced loads?
I know Red Dot has the 50% rule for certain cartridges......but only in strong rifles!

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1237
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #378097 - 26/07/23 11:49 PM

Hello 93x64mm,

I never use red dot. Too easy to get too high pressure. I4198 and AR5744 are much safer.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1024
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: A strange DR that joined the collection .. Kettner 11mm & 22 [Re: buckstix]
      #378103 - 27/07/23 06:01 AM

Good afternoon, Buckstix: Great information and thanks.

I liked your writeup on the Nikon Prostaff Scope with the BDC reticle. Very neat. Much better than aiming at a pie cone over the target.

93x64mm: The rule that I have seen in DGJ and elswhere is to use a weight of 4198 equal to 40 to 45% of the black powder load. For say a 11.15x60, the black powder load is 77 gr with a 386 gr bullets so 40% would be 31 gr of 4198. At 45%, the load would be 34.7 br of 4198 behind a 386 gr bullet.

For my Sauer DR, I used 32 gr 0f 4198 with a 386 gr bullet. Unfortunately, while each barrel grouped well, the gun shoots wide (right to right and left to left) so my next step will be to use a lighter bullet.

Concerning red dot and other fast powders, I have seen those used for light loads in single shot target rifles like schuetzens. I have never seen red dot used in double rifles.

--------------------
RB

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