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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: MikeRowe]
      #375798 - 03/04/23 11:49 AM

Accurate Arms Handloading book, with a red cover, possibly the 1990's edition, listed black powder loads in all of the Sharps ctgs.
With the normal BP loadings of 120gr. in the .45 3 1/4" case and the .50 in 3 1/4" cases, both rifles developed between 28,000 and 30,000PSI (pezio). These were with 500gr. bullets though.
Even the "lowly" .45/70 black powder round using 70gr. BP and 405gr. lead bullet developed 22,000psi.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375807 - 04/04/23 01:05 AM

As to the pros & cons of using ONLY black powder as opposed to “Nitro for Black” loads in our old rifles.
Keep in mind, I am just a shooter and careful reloader and not a trained Physicist or Engineer specialising in smokeless propellant internal dynamics.

There are enough very experienced people that in fact have tested and encourage well thought out “Nitro for Black” loads.
Starting with the old Kynoch firm circa 1890’s. More recently we have, Ken Owen, Ross Seyfried, Graeme Wright, Sherman Bell, Charles Dell, and others.

That “chamber ringing” happens with reduced loads in big cases is undeniable. That said, a blanket statement of “all smokeless is bad” may not be the whole story.
What is left unsaid is the type of powder and over powder wad that is implicated in this phenomenon.

This chamber ringing seems to have been seen when guys were commonly using pistol powders and a single wad to hold the powder back against the primer. It was and sometimes still is, common for guys to use Unique, Red Dot, Herco, you name it for very light loads in things like .30-30, .38-55, .444 Marlin, .45-70 and then hold the powder in place with a single hard card wad, cork wad, ball of toilet paper, etc.
This seemingly worked well enough with the smaller capacity cases, the trouble often came with cases of .45-70 size and larger.

The previously mentioned testers have successfully and safely tested and used fast and medium burning RIFLE POWDER to duplicate the ballistics of the old Black Powder Express cartridges. I would say that the typical most successful smokeless powder for this would be H4198 using appropriate Dacron, felt/fibre wads, or backer rod to completely fill the leftover air space above the powder.
The old original Kynoch in fact used appropriate amounts of “chopped rifle Cordite)” with filler wads in their period Nitro for Black Powder loadings.

I have not read of any rifles suffering chamber damage when using reasonable loads of H4198 or similar that were properly assembled.
Even to this day Kynamco (Kynoch brand) ammunition produces tested & safe Nitro for Black cartridges that are certainly meant to be used in rifles that are in good condition and “in proof” (even old BP Proof).
….As an aside, Kynamco uses their proprietary foam wads that would function very similarly to foam backer rod.

Thus it seems to me that a blanket statement discouraging Nitro for Black in old BP era rifles (or shotguns) is simply unwarranted.
I would still not use any “pistol powders” to get gallery load performance and recoil in bigger rifle cases old rifle or modern.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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85lc
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: MikeRowe]
      #375810 - 04/04/23 02:15 AM

Marrakai and Mike,

I am in Marrakai's camp. I have used NfB for some 30+ years. The instances that I have heard about chamber ringing were when the reloaded cartridge used a card or wadding over the nitro powder. Charlie Dell did some experimenting with small charges of nitro causing ringing and I believe that is what he found; that is, that the powder was confined and when ignited, the pressure built up due to the confinement and then when the pressure wave reached the bullet, it caused ringing.

To prevent this from occurring, I believe Wright, Seyfried, and others recommended using open cell foam rods (similar to what Kynoch sells (or sold)) to hold the powder in place. That is what I use.

In using NfB, I believe it is very important to follow the guidelines of Wright and Seyfried in terms of powder and loads.

In years past, duplex charges were used. I have not done that. If one does use a duplex charge, they need to properly reduce the black powder for the energy generated by the nitro.

Now, all that being said, I have never heard of black powder causing ringing so that is the safest route.

--------------------
RB


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degoins
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 85lc]
      #375812 - 04/04/23 02:51 AM

I've been using IMR4198 with backer rod or Dacron for years in my BP express rifles with no ringing or any other problems.

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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: degoins]
      #375816 - 04/04/23 04:54 AM

My ultimate take:
In a single shot or vintage Black Powder Bolt Action like a Mauser 71/84 there is no real issue other than convenience not to just use black powder and totally avoid any possible problems.
The rub comes with double rifles and the relatively common problem of barrels shooting too far apart because of some "weaker" or "dirtier" modern black powders. In this case it sometimes becomes necessary to use Nitro for Black loads or maybe duplex loading.
That's my 2˘ worth…..
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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MikeRowe
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375819 - 04/04/23 08:41 AM

It looks like I poked a bear with a stick here.
I say what I say because of observations of many rifles over many years.
4198 has been the culprit several times, as has the use of all the fillers mentioned.
Just because someone has done it for a long time with no problems proves nothing.
These rifles were made to shoot black - after all, it was the only propellant available.

This is all I can say.


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transvaal
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: MikeRowe]
      #375843 - 05/04/23 12:10 AM

The subject Woodward .500 BPE is one of exceptional beauty and form plus it has been taken care of for its life--at least from what I can see of it this is the case. You are to be congratulated for purchasing it--somehow I missed seeing it on the past Holt's auction.

If it were my rifle up there in North Carolina (I am down lower in South Carolina) I would not even think of using nitro propellant in it.

Are you perhaps coming to the Southern Side x Side event later this month at Sanford, North Carolina and bring your Woodward?

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell


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degoins
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: transvaal]
      #375855 - 05/04/23 03:54 AM

"Just because someone has done it for a long time with no problems proves nothing."

It proves it has, can, and will be done.


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MikeRowe
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: degoins]
      #375864 - 05/04/23 09:24 AM

Well....yes it does.
Does it do it with 100% safety as some would allude to? Not in my observations. Please do not confuse an observation with an opinion in this case.
I will say no more.


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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: MikeRowe]
      #375870 - 05/04/23 11:10 AM

I appreciate the passion and decorum everyone is showing. Thank you.

For now I am trying to get this rifle to shoot with black. Looking forward to getting back to the range next week with new rounds to try. I am using a .504 bullet intended to be patched. I've now loaded a few patched rounds. I will need to crimp them I think as they won't fully chamber. If that doesn't work, then lighter bond paper.

Thanks again all! And thanks for the compliments on the rifle. It is a joy.


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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: MikeRowe]
      #375871 - 05/04/23 01:05 PM

Quote:

Well....yes it does.
Does it do it with 100% safety as some would allude to? Not in my observations. Please do not confuse an observation with an opinion in this case.
I will say no more.



Mike Rowe:
Please do not "say no more" because your input is both thoughtful and based on your experience.

I would be curious as to your suggestion in the following situation:
Consider an unaltered antique/vintage BP Express double rifle that simply cannot be gotten to bring its right/left impacts together with straight Black Powder only loads. The assumption would be that the rifle was from a reputable maker and that it in fact did regulate well in the old days.

Now rather than trying "Nitro for Black" loadings to get it to bring its impacts together would you rather try sane and careful "duplex" loading to essentially preserve the advantages of Black Powder loading while potentially achieving suitable regulation?
I know full well that Duplex loading can have its own pitfalls if not done in a careful and informed manner.

Personally I think it unfortunate that Kik brand Black Powder is no longer….It did about better than any other in old BP Doubles.
- Mike Warren

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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85lc
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375881 - 06/04/23 02:26 AM

Mike Rowe, I agree with 3DogMike. Your input is well appreciated. Please continue providing your insight.

3DogMike, From what I have read and been told by older shooters, one should reduce the black powder charge by the energy level of the added nitro powder. That is, if you use say 2 gr of SR-4759, you should reduce the black powder charge by 6 gr to keep the pressure the same.

Chris, Best success with your loading. BTW, I have used .511" hardcast bullets (both 350 & 440 gr) pushed by 4.75 dr of 2F in my 500 BPE. I use a dip measurer with loads measured in drams with 1/4 drams increments. I once weighed BP but found no difference between weighed and dipped charges.

--------------------
RB


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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 85lc]
      #375886 - 06/04/23 03:31 AM

Quote:

Mike Rowe, I agree with 3DogMike. Your input is well appreciated. Please continue providing your insight.

3DogMike, From what I have read and been told by older shooters, one should reduce the black powder charge by the energy level of the added nitro powder. That is, if you use say 2 gr of SR-4759, you should reduce the black powder charge by 6 gr to keep the pressure the same.

Chris, Best success with your loading. BTW, I have used .511" hardcast bullets (both 350 & 440 gr) pushed by 4.75 dr of 2F in my 500 BPE. I use a dip measurer with loads measured in drams with 1/4 drams increments. I once weighed BP but found no difference between weighed and dipped charges.




Precisely so, hence my reference to "sane & careful" when it comes to duplex loading.
Some printed sources as well as other forums have guys talking about huge duplex doses of SR4759, 5744, 4227, etc in their modern made Black Powder Cartridge Rifles. Not a good plan…..especially so in vintage or antique Black Powder rifles.
Chapter 7 in Graeme Wrights book (3rd Edition) touches upon some of the issues necessary for safe(er) duplex loading.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375898 - 06/04/23 08:46 AM

I read an article many years ago, might have been by someone now passed on, but the article concerned using IMR3031 instead of the faster burning powders in duplex loads.
This was due to the slower pressure curve of the 3031 which still did everything the faster powders did, as to velocity and clean burning.
I tested this in my Sharps, with an 1859 barrel that was lined and chambered for .50/70 by Sharps in the 1867 contract.
10gr. of 3031 and 60gr. of 1F BP worked perfectly in that old barrel and shot into 3" at 100meters, off sand bags.
3 of the impacts made a triangle shaped 1 1/2" group, inside the 3" triangle.
22" bl. from an 1868 conversion Sharps Carbine.
My action was a modern made Italian action of cast 4140.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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85lc
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375900 - 06/04/23 09:57 AM

While I feel comfortable shooting NfB in my guns, I have not shot duplex loads. My focus has been reasonable accuracy and not exceeding reported BP velocities.

I believe that the initial push for duplex loading was cleaner shooting and adding "umph" to black powder loads to reach the velocities the cartridges were suppose to get.

I know some people have loaded and successfully shot Triple 7 in BPCR because they could not get listed velocities using 2F black powder.

Has anyone on this forum successfully used a black powder substitute and if so, what were the results?

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 85lc]
      #375901 - 06/04/23 10:31 AM

If you have to use a sub, T7 is about the only one with any power, that doesn't have perchlorates in it's mixture, according to the late Bill Knight.

Perchlorates make the fouling exceedingly corrosive, as-in Pyrodex.

Bill noted that Hodgdon used the same MSDS sheet for T-7 as with Pyrodex, but in his chemical analysis of it, he said T-7 did not have any of that chlorate substance in it's mixture, whereas Pyrodex was 17% per volume, perchlorates.
That's the bad shit. It's of of the detonating compounds made WW1 era corrosive primers, corrosive.

The load I showed, did not increase the original velocity of the .50/70 round, likely due to the use of GOEX 1F for the 60gr. load of black powder. It did, however achieve a vel. of 1,200fps, which is close to normal for that round with the 450gr. bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375920 - 07/04/23 10:56 AM

Over the years, I’ve made my best attempt to get my BPE rifles to shoot with black powder.
I’ve actually had good results with Old Eynsford powders - usually 2F and softish grease groove bullets.
I have, however, had very good results in a couple rifles using 4198 and a backer rod filler.
My thought is that if I can replicate the original loading as closely as possible and succeed, then there is no good reason to go to a NfB load.
The nostalgic side of me likes the idea of using these fine rifles just as they were in period to experience and connect with our predecessors who actually used these rifles as tools rather than novelties.

I am intrigued with duplex loads though. Haven’t tried that yet and could be the best option in a hard to regulate rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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