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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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Lawman
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Loc: Texas, USA
Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS
      #375853 - 05/04/23 02:05 AM

Is there any perceived problem with Mono Metal projectiles in 1903 models?
Has anyone had good results? Feeding from magazine, accuracy?
I would like to load something close to 155 grs, but lighter bullet that will feed would be OK.
My thought is the length of a heavier 6.5mm bullet might feed easier than a lighter thus shorter bullet.
Bullet recommendations?
Need loads for use in California.

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85lc
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Lawman]
      #375878 - 06/04/23 02:05 AM

That is a good question. I am interested in what others have to say. I understand that CA either restricts or doesn't allow bullets with lead cores (pity the muzzle loaders and black powder cartridge shooters).

I have stayed away from mono bullets for vintage nitro guns because I wasn't sure how they would (could) spike pressure. However, with grooves cut around the bullets, I have read that there isn't a high pressure spike.

For the same length, mono bullets are longer than conventional bullets so you might have to use a lighter weight bullet.

--------------------
RB

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Lawman
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: 85lc]
      #375893 - 06/04/23 07:03 AM

I was expecting a lighter bullet would be needed. To fit the magazine and feed properly.
not a problem in Texas, but son lives in CA.

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DarylS
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Lawman]
      #375896 - 06/04/23 08:34 AM

Lighter weight bullets along with a jump of at least .030" to the lands and the pressure spikes will not happen - however,
most mono-metal bullets require slightly less powder than a similar weight jacketed lead bullet, to produce the same peak pressure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: 85lc]
      #375902 - 06/04/23 01:17 PM

Quote:

I understand that CA either restricts or doesn't allow bullets with lead cores (pity the muzzle loaders and black powder cartridge shooters).



One may still shoot lead projectiles in California, just not at most critters.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Lawman
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #375906 - 06/04/23 11:43 PM

My research indicates lead projectiles only for target shooting.

Edited by Lawman (06/04/23 11:44 PM)

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Lawman]
      #375913 - 07/04/23 05:58 AM

Quote:

My research indicates lead projectiles only for target shooting.



It seems that with the 'phasing in' now complete, shooting of _any_ critter with lead is banned in California.

From California Department of Wildlife:

Nonlead Ammunition in California
Effective July 1, 2019, nonlead ammunition is required when taking any wildlife with a firearm anywhere in California.

In October 2013, Assembly Bill 711 was signed into law requiring the use of nonlead ammunition when taking any wildlife with a firearm in California. This law required the California Fish and Game Commission to adopt regulations that phased-in the statute’s requirements by July 1, 2019.

How will wildlife officers check for compliance?
All ammunition in a hunter’s possession may be inspected by wildlife officers. In some cases, if a wildlife officer suspects a hunter is in possession of lead ammunition and cannot prove otherwise in the field, he or she may seize a cartridge or bullet for further analysis. Hunters are encouraged to assist in confirming compliance by retaining and carrying in the field ammunition boxes or other packaging.

What about target shooting or firearms for personal protection?
The regulations do not require use of nonlead ammunition when target shooting. Use of lead projectiles for target shooting is legal unless CDFW or another government entity has determined otherwise for lands they administer. The regulations do not prohibit the possession of concealable firearms containing lead ammunition, provided the firearm is possessed for personal protection and is not used to take or assist in the take of wildlife. With the exception of ammunition for concealable firearms possessed for personal protection, hunters may not possess lead ammunition along with a firearm capable of firing that ammunition.




https://crpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/AB-711-Compliance-Guide.pdf

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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DarylS
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #375917 - 07/04/23 09:35 AM

ITX makes a number of balls, non lead, for muzzleloaders as well as non-toic shot.

I was given some to test, but they were too large and due to their hardness, I could find no-one locally who would risk one of their rifles for this test.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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LSHopper
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: DarylS]
      #375923 - 07/04/23 06:18 PM

I know that Bill Jones used cutting edge bullets in Selous’ 6.5x53R Holland to shoot a Buffalo in Mozambique. I’m sure that if it was safe in that rifle an 03 will be fine.

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3DogMike
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: LSHopper]
      #375934 - 08/04/23 09:50 AM

Lawman,
I'd expect no problem using monometal bullets per se.
Considering that you mention a Mannlicher 1903 the only issue might be the cartridge OAL and nose profile to get the bullet to feed reliably thru the rotary magazine and feed ramp.
My 1903 is pretty picky unless a bullet (like the Hornady 160 grain round nose) that matches the period originals is used. Likely for a similar length and profile a Mono will be a bit lighter.
My rifle does not even like the very similar Privi 156 grain semi round nose because of the round nose having a small flat tip. They shoot fine but feeding smoothly is problematic.
I have no idea who might make a 6.5 mono that would solve the possible feeding issue in a 1903.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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fjrdoc
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375935 - 08/04/23 11:02 AM

I load both 160 Hornady round nose and 129 spire points in my 1903 MS. I have not had any issues with cartridge feeding with the 129 spire points. You might have to play around with the COAL to see what works best for you.

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DarylS
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: fjrdoc]
      #375936 - 08/04/23 11:21 AM

Those Hornady 129's should be a good game bullet in that round.
Seems to me, most of the mono bullets are pointy HP types. The 120gr. are about the same length as a 140gr. SP and the 140's would be longer than a 160RN.
I think there is a 130gr., iirc.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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dearmer
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Lawman]
      #375954 - 10/04/23 08:09 AM

Pretty good timing on this post. I just started working up loads in my 1903 using Barnes 120gr TTSX's last week. As mentioned, different rifles seem to feed differently but they feed well in mine as long as I seat them as long as possible (still fit in the magazine) and run the bolt hard. From memory there is a raised portion on the follower that begins right in front of the case shoulder. When the cartridge is pushed forward the tip of the bullet lifts the cartridge over this lip. Since the pointy bullets are narrower at the tip there is less lifting action than a wider round nose has. Hence why I need to run the bolt. If I try to close the bolt like a brit holds his tea cup it hangs up.
I don't think you could go any lighter than a 120 and still have enough length to do this.

So far accuracy has been good but I just got the rifle and have not compared it to a 160 cup and core round nose, or anything else for that matter.
I've only used StaBall 6.5 and H4350 and it looks like 2700fps out of my 26" barrel will be easy. I may even get 2800 or more. Should be a real killer with the TSX and has a far better BC than the heavier round noses.

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85lc
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: dearmer]
      #375955 - 10/04/23 08:22 AM

That looks like a nice bullet for a 26" rifle barrel. I wonder how it will work in a carbine (short barrel)? Velocity will certainly be slower. For the most part, I have used 160 gr bullets. I think I will try the Barnes 120gr TTSX.

--------------------
RB

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DarylS
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: 85lc]
      #375956 - 10/04/23 09:50 AM

Just make sure you have at least a .030" or more jump to the rifling.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: DarylS]
      #375957 - 10/04/23 11:22 AM

Quote:

Just make sure you have at least a .030" or more jump to the rifling.



If it feeds through the Schoenauer magazine, it will have the "jump".

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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DarylS
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #375958 - 10/04/23 12:29 PM

Good - this is very important to keep initial pressures low.
The pressure spike is not as critical, some would say it isn't there, but the original non-grooved monometal bullets caused the spike if not started .050" off the lands.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: DarylS]
      #375966 - 11/04/23 03:35 AM

Several years ago I developed an “unleaded” load for my G.Gibbs M1903 Mannlicher – Schoenauer in 6.5x54 M-S and used it since.

I use a 130 gr Barnes TSX bullet and 42 gr VV N160, seated out to an oal of 75.6 mm = 2.97”. As I found out only recently, this would be a top load for the newfangled 6.5 Creepmore…

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85lc
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: kuduae]
      #375968 - 11/04/23 06:12 AM

Axel, That is a beautiful rifle. Thanks for the load data.

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RB

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DarylS
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Re: Mono Metal Bullets in 1903 MS [Re: 85lc]
      #375979 - 12/04/23 02:52 AM

That IS a nice rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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