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CJF
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Dickson 250 Rook
#375823 - 04/04/23 10:24 AM

At Holt's November 2022 auction I won a John Dickson 250 Rook rifle. It's a beautiful little thing that makes me more than happy for all the rooks I haven't won at past Holts auctions!

Below is the lot description, a link and then some pictures I've taken now that the rifle has arrived here in the states.

A .250 (ROOK) SINGLE-BARRELLED TOPLEVER HAMMERLESS ROOK & RABBIT RIFLE SIGNED JOHN DICKSON & SON, serial no. 6072,
for 1908, 26 1/4in. black powder only octagonal barrel with matted sighting flats, standing notch rear sight with two folding leaf sights marked for 50, 100 and 150 yards and with white metal-inlaid sight lines, dove-tailed bead fore-sight, engraved 'JOHN DICKSON & SON. EDINBURGH.', and '250', and with a feathered border at the breech-end, non-selective ejector, the action with carved teardrop fences, removable striker disc, automatic safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' detail, border and bold acanthus scroll engraving, retaining much original colour-hardening and finish, 14 3/4in. figured pistolgrip stock with engraved and colour-hardened steel pistolgrip-cap, cheekpiece, including blued steel buttplate, Hackett-type snap-on splinter fore-end with horn finial, weight 5lb. 11oz

Link to the Holt's listing: Lot 729

Pictures:

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#375825 - 04/04/23 02:55 PM

congratulations!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: lancaster]
#375829 - 04/04/23 05:06 PM

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh MAN!
What can you make brass out of, Hornet?
The base dia. looks identical. .297" within a thou. or so.

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degoins
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: DarylS]
#375837 - 04/04/23 10:04 PM

Beautiful......congrats!!

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85lc
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: degoins]
#375844 - 05/04/23 12:11 AM

That is a very nice looking rifle and should be fun to shoot.

--------------------
RB

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 85lc]
#375845 - 05/04/23 12:36 AM

same way to go like for the 297-230 Morris, you have to reduce the rim thickness on hornet brass

297-250 Rock

297-230 Morris long

22 Hornet

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroX
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: lancaster]
#375847 - 05/04/23 12:57 AM

Thanks for that Lancaster.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: NitroX]
#375860 - 05/04/23 04:20 AM

well, reducing the rim thickness from 1,5 mm to 1mm on hundred .22 hornet cases is a pretty boring job.
boring but necessary.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: lancaster]
#375885 - 06/04/23 03:16 AM

Thanks for the diagrams Lancaster.

I purchased a trim die along with the reloading dies from CH4D. I've never used one before. Till now, the only major trimming of brass I've done is cutting 223s down for 300BLK. I have only a couple of empty hornet cases lying around. I might sacrifice one towards learning how to use the trim die while I wait for the machined cases I've ordered from RMC.

My understanding is that because the rim needs thinning, even if I can trim the brass correctly, I'm stuck without having a lathe to do the thinning. I am assuming you can do that for a few cases on a drill press.

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85lc
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#375887 - 06/04/23 03:31 AM

I think it would be hard to trim a rim back without a lathe. That is one reason why I bought a small lathe (EMCO 3)

--------------------
RB

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 85lc]
#375888 - 06/04/23 04:07 AM

thinning the rims is a boring work as I say, without a lathe more or less impossible. you can insert the hornet brass into a box column drill and thin the rim with a file but less fun than the other method.
the trim die is simply a sizing die with the lenght of the brass, hardened so you can cut the front end of the hornet case and hone it done with a file. the neck of hornet brass have to be open up to .250 or a little bit more so it form the right way in this sizing die.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: lancaster]
#375892 - 06/04/23 06:08 AM

That is one stunning rifle there CJF!
Absolutely top notch pick up.
Yes it will be a labour of love, but worth every bit of blood, sweat & tears (well hopefully none of them)!

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DarylS
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 93x64mm]
#375897 - 06/04/23 08:37 AM

Just make sure you thin from the inside-down, not from the base up(which would be easier, but then the primers don't fit properly).

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: DarylS]
#376074 - 17/04/23 01:39 PM

I am grateful to another board member for selling me some reformed brass at a decent price. Looking forward to loading so,w rounds as soon as we are back from the beach.

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#377278 - 13/06/23 03:03 AM

New (old) Dickson case arrived today from last month's Gavin Gardiner auction. Neat lightweight case with a shorter length matched to the rook's barrel. I'll need to add a little blocking but I think this will be a good fit.

Two questions for you experts --

1) is it normal for a case like this to NOT have a tie down for the wrist of the stock? This case doesn't have one and doesn't look like one was ever there.

2) any suggestions on sourcing felt to match the case's existing interior? I'd like to add a felt covered block at the head of the action to push the butt up against the existing case lining and I'd like that to blend in as much as possible with the original case. I'll also need to repurpose the space currently held by the two Dickson snap caps. (Apologies for the dark picture. I'll try to post better ones soon.)

Edited by CJF (13/06/23 03:05 AM)

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85lc
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#377280 - 13/06/23 04:21 AM

Chris,

Very nice looking case for your rifle.

While most cases have a tie down wrist strap, I have seen a few without the strap.

Matching 100 year old felt will be an issue as cloth changes from dye lot to dye lot and of course, changes with age.

I think you have to take your case into a craft store and buy the closest felt which you might be able to dye to a closer match. I have seen cases that there is a slight difference in felt color which likely is due to a repair.

The only other option that I know people do is replace all the felt. However, your felt looks good and that likely isn't a practical option.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 85lc]
#377282 - 13/06/23 05:07 AM

Thanks Roy. I’ll give that a shot (fabric store).

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Igorrock
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#377283 - 13/06/23 05:39 AM

Felt colour looks quite similar like those two Purdey cases whose I just restoring.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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93x64mm
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: Igorrock]
#377284 - 13/06/23 06:17 AM

Great pick up on the Dickson case CJF - looks a treat & even if it's not exact then I wouldn't matter too much. A 100+ year old case is bound to have a few scrapes here & there - hence the 'repairs'!
Well done mate - now for the range report!

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 93x64mm]
#377287 - 13/06/23 12:37 PM

I definitely owe a range report on this one. I've got powder, brass, projectiles and dies, but haven't done anything yet to get rounds loaded. Need to fix that this week.

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Ahmed577
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#377293 - 13/06/23 08:22 PM

I love rook rifles. I own 2 Hollands in 250/297 a single and double. I also have a Purdey factory original built single hornet. All great for shooting pigeons around my house.

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NZHunter
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: Ahmed577]
#377413 - 20/06/23 02:40 PM

Very nice indeed, enjoy!

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: NZHunter]
#378058 - 24/07/23 01:18 AM

Thanks all.

A new question...I'm sitting down to load some cases and ran into a question I need help with. The only 297/250 load I've seen published for Unique powder calls for 1.9grains. I'm a relatively new reloader and I don't have a scale, instead I've been using Lee's powder scoops. The Lee guide calls show the smallest charge of Unique you can measure with the smallest of these scoops is 2.7grains.

My question is whether 2.7grains is safe. I have found a second hand reference to Colin Greenwood's book on rooks, which I don't have and is out of print, that says 3.0grains of Unique is OK.

Does anyone have Colin's book and can confirm 3.0 grains of Unique for a 250 rook using a 50gr jacketed 25 ACP bullet is OK?

Otherwise I'm thinking I either need to build my own measure to throw roughly 70% of the 0.3cc Lee scoop, or wait a month till we're back from traveling and I can get a scale.

Delayed gratification is no fun. Anyone have Colin's book?

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85lc
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378065 - 24/07/23 02:39 AM

Good morning, Chris.

My recommendation is to get a scale before doing any reloading. They are cheap and last a lifetime. (Well, I bought mine in the late 1960s and it is still accurate - checked against a digital scale).

You should be able to pick up a scale at any shop that sells reloading equipment. If you will be in an area for a week or so, Amazon sells digital scales for under $20. (Later you can get a beam scale.)

I have used the Lee scoops for light loads and they seem fairly accurate but I do always double check using a scale.

Load data for rooks seems to be all over the place. If I find my Colin book, I will let you know what he says (I moved a number of books into a storage area).

My exoerience with a 295 rook is that I was getting very high velocity using the loads recommended. However, thatmay just be the rook rifle I was using.

Best success with your rook.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 85lc]
#378069 - 24/07/23 04:34 AM

Thanks Roy. Scale ordered.

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378077 - 24/07/23 11:33 PM

Scale should arrive today. Also got help on another board to confirm Greenwood's book does show a load of 3.0 grains of Unique for the 297/250. I'll wait on the scale and load lighter charges as they seem to be recommended as more accurate.

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Huvius
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378078 - 24/07/23 11:37 PM

Greenwood's book does say 3gr of Unique is a good load.
He also says 25cal. pistol bullets are suitable so that is a big help too.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: Huvius]
#378185 - 31/07/23 02:00 AM

Happy to report I was able to load up 5 different loads and get to the range yesterday.

I was using lead round nose 25 ACP bullets, cast by Bear Creek Supply. Loads with 1.9grains of Unique were accurate and showed no pressure signs. Hotter loads with 2.7gr Unique showed issues with cratered primers and sticky opening, so I'll be tearing those down to re-do with lighter charges (including trying 1.7gr Unique).

I did not try shooting any of the jacketed round nose 25 ACP projectiles from PPU, as I had those over 2.7gr Unique and I'd already seen issues with that much powder and LRN bullets.

Remington 6/12 primers seemed to give better accuracy than regular small rifle primers. Will need a bigger sample to confirm.

No difference I could see between RMC turned brass cases and reformed cases made from 22 Hornet brass.

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85lc
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378193 - 31/07/23 03:02 AM

Chris,

This is a nice report. I find it interesting that your accurate load of 1.9 gr Unique was much less than the load of 3.0 gr Unique as recommended by Greenwood.

I used the Greenwood recommended load of 5.0 gr of Unique in my 295 rook and found that the load was way to hot for my gun.

--------------------
RB

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buckstix
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 85lc]
#378361 - 05/08/23 03:42 AM

Here's my 250 Rook. ... It's an alligator cased Watson Brothers. I love that caliber. I have several 250s, this is my best one.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378369 - 05/08/23 06:40 AM

Quote:

Happy to report I was able to load up 5 different loads and get to the range yesterday.

I was using lead round nose 25 ACP bullets, cast by Bear Creek Supply. Loads with 1.9grains of Unique were accurate and showed no pressure signs. Hotter loads with 2.7gr Unique showed issues with cratered primers and sticky opening, so I'll be tearing those down to re-do with lighter charges (including trying 1.7gr Unique).

I did not try shooting any of the jacketed round nose 25 ACP projectiles from PPU, as I had those over 2.7gr Unique and I'd already seen issues with that much powder and LRN bullets.

Remington 6/12 primers seemed to give better accuracy than regular small rifle primers. Will need a bigger sample to confirm.

No difference I could see between RMC turned brass cases and reformed cases made from 22 Hornet brass.

you .250 rock guys maybe not notice this, Händler& Natermann in germany is making 6,35 mm airgun slugs
for some time now called "heavy slug". weight of this bullets goes from 38 to 46 grains, they differ in length but be otherwise the same.

https://www.hn-sport.de/de/air-gun-hunting

hollow point with flat base, pure lead, diameter .251
25 ACP full metall have .250

the heavy slugs cost 8-9 euro for 100 here. they work fine when reload them into 25 ACP.
of course, the 46 grains is the best for the pistol rounds. the bullets are not coated but lee liquid alox will do it - if you can get this bullets in your country.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: buckstix]
#378386 - 05/08/23 09:12 PM

Quote:

Here's my 250 Rook. ... It's an alligator cased Watson Brothers. I love that caliber. I have several 250s, this is my best one.

Very nice piece of kit Buckstix!.
Hopefully you can get some of Lancaster's air rifle slugs - they'd be just dandy!

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 93x64mm]
#378401 - 06/08/23 03:43 AM

look at my boxes, they are available in more different weights

here is a 28 grain , 36 grain and 44 grain bullet

the 5,5 mm could be maybe useful for reloading the little .297/.230 Morris

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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HistoricBore
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: lancaster]
#378473 - 07/08/23 06:59 PM

That is a great find, and in a great, useful calibre.
I have always used a 56 grain bullet cast here in England with soft lead, at just under the speed of sound - 1100 fps or so.

HB

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buckstix
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: 93x64mm]
#378492 - 08/08/23 02:50 AM

Quote:

Very nice piece of kit Buckstix!.
Hopefully you can get some of Lancaster's air rifle slugs - they'd be just dandy!

Hello 93x64mm,

I have bullet swaging dies for 251 cal so I can swage lead and jacketed bullets from 30g up to 65g.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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CJF
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: buckstix]
#378552 - 11/08/23 06:15 AM

How difficult and expensive is it to get into swaging?

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lancaster
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378567 - 12/08/23 04:04 AM

you can use a reloading press like the rock chucker for such small bullets. problem is you need lead pellets with the right weight, length and +/- a special diameter. common way is to have lead wire and a cutter for making them.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: CJF]
#378683 - 16/08/23 09:16 PM

Quote:

How difficult and expensive is it to get into swaging?

Hello,

Start-up is a little pricey, but well worth it. I have 4 Corbin swage presses.

http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm

Over the years I have acquired swage dies for 20 different calibers from .14 cal up to .460 cal. I've paid for much of the costs of dies and presses by selling custom bullets to others.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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85lc
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Re: Dickson 250 Rook [Re: buckstix]
#378691 - 17/08/23 01:52 AM

A friend just boughht a corbin press to make slugs for his PCP air gun. It does a great job.

I don't see used Corbin presses coming up for sale so I guess the buyers don't sell their old presses or I am looking on the wrong website.

--------------------
RB

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