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CJF
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.500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons
      #375709 - 31/03/23 12:10 PM

Last week I arrived home to North Carolina from Wisconsin to find two rifles from Holt's November 2022 auction had been delivered. The smaller, a Dickson rook in 250 is just amazing and deserves its own post later. For now, I'd like to share pictures and some initial impressions from a first range outing of the other rifle, a double double rifle by Woodward in 500 BPE. Holt's description is below, and you can view their pictures by looking for Lot 730 (Holts Lot 730)

Initial impressions...the rifle points well, bores are very very nice and while parts of the gun have been refinished, that work was done with some subtlety and it is overall quite beautiful. Pics to follow on a second post.

I loaded four rounds for each of the 3 varieties of bullets I had, all with the same charge and a 0.25" beeswax and crisco lube wad. All groups shot high and right regardless of whether I was standing or kneeling. No rest was used. Distance was 30 yards. None of the loads crossed (all right barrel shots landed to the right of the left barrel shots.)

I have cleaned those cases and will reload in the morning using different charges for the two better shooting bullet weights. Best group was 3" for 4 shots, high and right by 4". None of these loads are yet paper patched (I haven't actually loaded a patched round yet, but I've at least started messing with wrapping bullets and have the book.) This may sound silly, but I'm also brining along a 22LR bolt gun that I know shoots to point of aim...I'm bothered that both this rifle and my Reilly both are shooting high and right for me. I'm worried that a flinch on my part.

A .500 (3IN.) BLACK POWDER EXPRESS ROTARY-UNDERLEVER DOUBLE HAMMER RIFLE BY JAMES WOODWARD & SONS, serial no. 4456,
for 1892, 28in. reblued black powder only barrels, partially file cut rib engraved 'JAMES WOODWARD & SONS. 64 ST. JAMES'S ST. LONDON.', standing notch rear sight with one folding leaf sight and marked for 100 and 200 yards and with white-metal inlaid sight lines, bead fore-sight, Jones patent rotary-underlever, carved percussion fences, rebounding back-action locks with dolphin hammers, the action face engraved 'J.W. & S.', best border and acanthus scroll engraving, retaining some renewed colour-hardening and finish, 14 3/4in. figured pistolgrip stock with engraved steel pistolgrip-cap, sling eyes, including 1in. rubber recoil pad, fore-end with grip-release, weight 8lb. 12oz.

Provenance: The makers have kindly provided us with the following information:

Woodward, No. 4456
Completed: 28th November 1892
For: Lord Castlemaine
Description: A double-barrelled hammer rifle
Weight: 8lb. 12oz.
Calibre: .500 (BPE)
Barrels: 28in.
Stock: 14 5/8in.
Notes:
Lefaucheux back action
Rebounding locks
Stock with pistolgrip but no cheek-piece
Sighted for 100 & 200 yards
Regulated for the 130grns of Black Powder and Eley's express bullet, using a straight solid-drawn case

Albert Edward Handcock, 5th Baron Castlemaine (26 March 1863 – 6 July 1937), styled The Honourable from 1869 to 1892, was an Irish peer. He was a major landowner with 12,000 acres

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375711 - 31/03/23 12:50 PM

Here are some pictures of the rifle taken today at the range and at home.



















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Huvius
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375712 - 31/03/23 01:30 PM

Beautiful rifle!
130gr charge is somewhat low for a 500 so perhaps the Eley cartridge it was regulated for was using the 340gr bullet of the original Eley coiled brass 500 which used a charge of 120grs.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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degoins
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: Huvius]
      #375720 - 31/03/23 10:50 PM

Lovely rifle.....congrats!

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: degoins]
      #375726 - 01/04/23 12:30 AM

Huvius, I agree the 130gr charge seemed light compared to the typical starting range of 135-140. I started at 137. For the next batch I'll take the charge down to 130 and retry all 3 bullets I have. I'll try both FFG and FFFG at 130.

The maker's notes on regulation "Regulated for the 130grns of Black Powder and Eley's express bullet, using a straight solid-drawn case" is not something I researched before yesterday's outing to the range. I should have...after buying a reprint of Eley's 1892 ammunition catalog from Cornell Publishing as a PDF, I was able to confirm what you just said...namely that "Eley's express bullet" in 500 BPE 3" was 340grs. Thank you for your help and compliments on the rifle.

degoins - Thank you!

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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: degoins]
      #375727 - 01/04/23 12:33 AM

Oh very nice! You did well. Woodward’s rifles are some of the best of that era.

Out of curiosities sake:
- what brand and grade of powder were you using?
- does it have Henry type rifling or more normal lands & groove?

Have fun experimenting with paper patching; it is kind of a learning curve but so period correct.
If you really pursue the original hollow nose express type bullets for paper patching I cannot recommend “Brooks Moulds” highly enough. Steve Brooks will cut you a mould to exactly your specs.
https://brooksmoulds.com/
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375728 - 01/04/23 12:35 AM

I also just noticed from the image in the Eley 1892 catalog that round pictured was paper jacketed. So I will finally breakdown and try that in today's loads (assuming I can follow the instructions in Paul Matthews' book "The Paper Jacket"

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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375729 - 01/04/23 01:18 AM

Quote:

I also just noticed from the image in the Eley 1892 catalog that round pictured was paper jacketed. So I will finally breakdown and try that in today's loads (assuming I can follow the instructions in Paul Matthews' book "The Paper Jacket"



In that era (almost) all the black powder ammo used paper patch bullets. Purdey and Holland & Holland did offer grease groove (ringed) bullets.

Tho paper patched bullet was the historical case; you will find that normal grease groove cast bullets of at least groove diameter will usually shoot just fine. Brand and grade of powder, lube, and bullet alloy all will make a difference.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375731 - 01/04/23 02:21 AM

I believe a Woodward .500 muzzle of Curl's might be on our logo.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: NitroX]
      #375732 - 01/04/23 04:09 AM

Paul Mathews book "The Paper Jacket" is a marvelous book indeed.
By following his teachings, we were finally able to get a very shallow grooved Sharps to shoot accurately after roughly 8 years of trying and failing.

That is a beautiful DR btw, CFE. Nice 'grab'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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85lc
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375736 - 01/04/23 07:47 AM

One of the loads that I have seen (Wal Winfer) is 57 gr of 4198 and 440 gr bullet for 1900 fps.

Another is 136 gr 2F and 440 gr bullet

I believe I have tried both (would need to check my notes) and they regulated to 4" group at 75 yds. I use a wad above the powder, 1/4" lub wad, 2nd wad and then bullet. Cases are 3".

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 85lc]
      #375737 - 01/04/23 09:02 AM

RB, I need to try something different as I just got back from the range and using the lower charge that Woodward said was used for regulation did nothing to improve groupings with either 130gr FFg or 130gr FFFg. My paper patches hadn't dried in time to load and still beat the rain front, so I haven't tried those yet. The four I rolled before leaving look nice. Excited to try them.

I know this may be silly, but I really want to get this rifle and the Dickson to regulate with black powder before trying nitro-for-black. But the past 48 hours sure has been frustrating. If this was a normal rifle, I'd just move the sites and live with the 3" spread between barrels. (The barrels themselves are pretty consistent so 2 shots from the right barrel are close to each other.) But there's no moving the front sight and the rear is currently staked in place.

What was the standard regulation distance for 500 BPE? I wonder if my rounds are high because I'm trying to do this at 30 yards.

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375738 - 01/04/23 09:04 AM

And this rifle hits back, even though it's wearing a pad. Doesn't help that I'm only wearing a t-shirt. Definitely time for more upper body strength building...I don't have enough padding in the shoulder for 30 rounds of 500 BPE at 130 to 137gr charges.

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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375740 - 01/04/23 10:45 AM

CJF
"….just got back from the range and using the lower charge that Woodward said was used for regulation did nothing to improve…."
1) As I asked/hinted at previously, what BP are you using? The available brands are not all equal energy wise.
2) You have not said what weight of bullets are you using? Heavier than 340grains (maybe 350 grains) likely will be an issue.
3) Plenty of experienced guys will relate that it takes more weight of modern BP to equal the regulation & velocities gotten in the old days with the usual Curtis & Harvey #6 powder. I'd try to avoid 3F.
4) it is the case that often times you simply can't get modern weaker BP to give adequate regulation. Nitro for Black with H4198 can be your friend, besides that, NfB loads recoil noticeably less.

"…..I really want to get this rifle and the Dickson to regulate with black powder before trying nitro-for-black……"
-See #4 above

"…….What was the standard regulation distance for 500 BPE?….."
1) Usual English regulation distance was 60 yards, sometimes more. Most guys these days use 50 yards.
2) You may eventually have to have a taller front sight made, or file the rear sight to lower the point of impact.
3) Maybe adjust your sight picture? (is the front bead buried at the bottom of the "V"?

"……….But there's no moving the front sight and the rear is currently staked in place…."
- "staked" does not mean immoveable, you can use a small hammer & proper brass drift to move the rear sight as necessary despite the witness mark.


Suggestion: If you do not own a copy; beg, borrow, or steal the book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright. It is invaluable for those that want to get good results with Nitro, Nitro for Black, and Black Powder in these rifles.

Good luck & enjoy the rifle, a Woodward is a real treasure that is relatively rare.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375743 - 01/04/23 12:45 PM

Mike - great advice. Thanks for having the patience and for taking the time to share it.

I've been using Old Eynsford for both today and yesterday's loads. On day 1 I tried 137gr of OE in 3Fg with 300, 340 and 370gr bullets. All used the same beeswax and crisco lube wad between the powder and the bullet. On day 2, I used only 340gr projectiles, at 0.504", with 130gr FFg and 130gr FFFg. Same lube wad. All 5 loads shot high at 30 yards. Excluding shots where I knew I didn't do my part, average height over POA was 3-4" high and 2-4" right. Dispersion across these loads was fairly consistent at approximately 3.5" between left and right barrels. If I did my part, left barrel shot 1-1.5" groups. Same for right barrel. But I didn't always do my part!

To reiterate re bullet weight, today I shot only 340gr bullets, 0.504" diameter, since that weight did the best on day one, and that's what Eley's Express Bullet in 500 weighed, back in 1892.

Sight picture has been top of front bead level with horizontal plane of rear sight. My eyes are 57 years old, but both yesterday and today the light was good on both sights and the target, with zero wind to mess with. Temps in mid 60s. For reference, with a decent scoped 22LR at this distance I'm shooting 1/2" groups for 5 with Walmart ammo, or better, depending on caffeine, last night's IPA count and hours of sleep.

My next step is to paper patch the bullets. I would be happy to try a more energetic black powder if one is readily available. If not, then after patching I'll try a nitro-for-black load, as this rifle, and the Dickson beg to be used in the field and current accuracy isn't great, even for whitetails on the east coast.

Please keep the advice coming. PM if you think I'm being stubborn (please)

Chris

(and on a very different note, since you flew, you might appreciate a quick story about another pilot. Tomorrow, April 1st, would have been my father in law's 86th birthday. He was born in a very small town in Western Maryland called Accident...who else can say they were born on April Fools in Accident. He went on to fly T38s as a pilot instructor in the mid 60s and was one of the youngest pilot instructors at the time. He last flew in an F16 on a courtesy flight out of Hawaii when he was 65. Great guy. Miss him. He passed in January.)

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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375744 - 01/04/23 01:20 PM

With Express sights the aim is usually meant for the bead to be buried in the bottom of the V.
With the 3-4" height, a hold only 1/2 way might be necessary.
BW and Vaseline is a better BP lube than BW and Crisco.
60% BW 40% Vaseline, for me, shot identically with SPG and Lyman's Black Powder Gold in several BP ctg. & muzzleloading rifles using slugs.
Swiss BP is more energetic than GOEX or Old Enysford and Scheutzen as well. Swiss has a higher specific gravity, ie: volume measures must be weighed as, per se' a 130gr. measure for Old Enysford will likely hold 140gr. 1 1/2 F Swiss. You will have to adjust your wad column accordingly.
Most guys recommend Swiss 1 1/2F for ctg. rifles.
Note Vaseline is a synthesized petroleum WAX, thus it mixes perfectly with BP fouling, unlike petroleum oils and greases.

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375745 - 01/04/23 01:23 PM

thanks Daryl!

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3DogMike
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375746 - 01/04/23 01:43 PM

Old Eynsford 2F is good. I, like Daryl, have good luck with Swiss 1 1/2 as well.
I'd suggest to try as high as 140 grains Old Eynsford by weight to see if it brings the right/left closer. (maybe still have room for a grease cookie?)

.504" bullets…..If they are shooting individual barrels well enough then the bullets diameter is not a factor. Maybe soft enough to "bump up" if the Woodward .500 BPE groove is a more normal .508"-.510"

Elevation…..eyesight considered, bury the front bead in the crotch bottom of the "V". That is where the sights would have been filed in for to have dead on at 100 yards and maybe 1" high at 50 yards. Level with the top horizontal likely explains the high impacts on target.

Cheers,
Mike

ADDED:
Old Eynsford 2F is certainly a good choice, chance that 3F will push your pressures higher than the original loads.

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: 3DogMike]
      #375747 - 01/04/23 02:16 PM

Burying the front sight in the V reminds me of how I was told Italian Carcano rifles were to be aimed. This was different than mausers and other WW2 rifles with barrel mounted rear sights where you lined up the top of the bead with the top of the notch in the rear.. I'll give that a shot next week.

Re powders, all I have is OE in FFF and FF, and some Grafs 2F. I had tried the first day's loading with OE and FFFg to overcome the power loss from PH#6, but that didn't do much, so that's why I tried FFg and FFFg with one bullet weight today.

What I'll try next is paper patching 504s up to 508-510s at the current charge of 130 FFg (but with the bead in the crook of the rear V) and the same patched bullets with 140grs. Separately I'll try both loads out at 50yds. If the spread between left and right barrels tightens and elevation is helped with a different sight picture, I'll look to drift the rear sight to correct the POA.

Right now I could take this rifle out and harvest a deer, but it wouldn't be humane. Looking forward to dialing this in.

Re your time in the USAF and Guard, I did not know that the USAF flew A7s. I always loved that the look of that plane but thought it was only for carriers. Learned something new. As an undergrad I went to the UW in Madison. I know I saw A10s over Madison...trying to remember if that was after graduation or back in the late 80s when I was still studying there.

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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375767 - 02/04/23 02:54 AM

Quote:


Right now I could take this rifle out and harvest a deer, but it wouldn't be humane. Looking forward to dialing this in.




Why would harvesting a deer with that rifle not be humane? A clean kill is as humane as you can get.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CJF
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375770 - 02/04/23 03:12 AM

Daryl -

What I'm saying is that missing POA by 3-5 inches now at 30yards doesn't give me confidence in a clean kill cause I'm not confident I can hit where I'm aiming yet with hit. Changing the sight picture as discussed above should solve for the elevation issue. Hopefully a more energetic powder will solve for the distance between L and R barrels. I am super confident in the lethality of the 500 BPE round on a whitetail.

Re lubes, I will switch to beeswax and vaseline when I've finished with the current batch of beeswax and crisco. Clean up isn't bad now, although the bores sure do look dirty after just two rounds. For what it's worth, I've been running a wet patch through each barrel before starting each new load permutation...so shoot 4-6 rounds, patch, then next 4-6 rounds.

Mike -

I didn't answer your question about the rifling. It is standard, relatively shallow grooves. Not Alexander Henry style rifling. Regarding powders, all I have is 2Fg and 3Fg Old Eynsford and 1lb of 2Fg private label Graf's powder (not sure who makes that for them.)

For powder I will order 1.5F and 2F Swiss, plus two more pounds of 2F OE as I know the 450 Reilly likes that.

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DarylS
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: CJF]
      #375772 - 02/04/23 06:04 AM

Gotcha.
Are the barrels diverging or crossing.
With my rifle, more powder made them uncross, then even more powder, caused them to re-cross.
Thus, a little more powder or less is needed.
Different wad columns can also effect regulation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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MikeRowe
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: DarylS]
      #375785 - 02/04/23 10:44 PM

First things first - make a good standing rest to test your rifle. You are taking an unnecessary beating from a .500 and not getting reliable results without one.

Light will affect where the rifle shoots quite dramatically with open sights and aging eyes. If it's coming from the side, the impact will be away from the light source.

Use OE 1 1/2F powder, it is the closest thing we have to C&H No.6 Nothing else has enough oomph. The 3F OE will give you over pressure loads. I've had it pressure tested.

Use a 340 grain PP bullet .503 naked - that's from an Eley drawing.

The .500 Lancaster thread has the load details. It will get you in the ballpark, you can adjust powder slightly from there if you have to.

Do not use NFB loads, the risk of ringing the chamber is too great. I have seen way too many of them.

BTW Lovely rifle!

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Marrakai
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: MikeRowe]
      #375794 - 03/04/23 07:41 AM

Quote:

Do not use NFB loads, the risk of ringing the chamber is too great.


Sorry Mike, can't let that one stand without comment!

The risk of chamber ringing is well recognized if a card wad is seated down on the powder column and a significant air-gap is created in the case between that wad and the base of the bullet.

If an appropriate filler is used to eliminate air gaps in the case, there is no risk of chamber ringing.

Read Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" which is the recognized authority on loading such cartridges.

Most of us on these forums have been loading Nitro-for-Black in our vintage doubles for decades without any issues whatsoever, using saddle-felt wads (my personal favorite), backer-rod, or kapok-style fillers.

A full Black Powder load will generate around 10 tons pressure, whereas most N-for-B loads are down around 7 or 8 tons pressure, making them kinder on vintage rifle actions.

So use BP loads for nostalgia or historical accuracy by all means, but don't discard N-for-B just because fools have ruined a few guns over the years.

...and yes, CJF, that's a beautiful old double by arguably the best maker at the time. Congratulations!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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MikeRowe
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Re: .500 BPE by James Woodward & Sons [Re: Marrakai]
      #375797 - 03/04/23 09:17 AM

I had a lot of antique rifles through the shop when I was working on them.
If you had seen as many ringed chambers as I have, you would be leery like me.
And a lot of them were from experienced reloaders, oh, and at least one "authority".
Based on my observations, I will never use NFB in my rifles, and can only recommend against it.

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