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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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JudoFire
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Reged: 10/02/23
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan, United States
My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go.
      #375665 - 29/03/23 05:42 AM

I have wanted a double rifle since I was a teenager. I only ever saw them in movies and in the Gun Digest price guide and always drooled over them. However, due to the price and the impractical calibers theyre chambered in, owning one was always just a pipe dream.
A few months ago I found out that a guy can build a double rifle from a shotgun and that got the gears turning. I started researching. I read forums, watched YouTube videos, and bought and read Ellis Browns book. I THINK I posses most of the skills necessary to pull it off. I am a fabrication engineer now (self taught) but I started as a metal fabricator and did my vocational training in high school in machining....which I still dabble with. I do have access to a mill and a lathe at work and I have a couple of friends that are pretty accomplished career machinists if I need some help. Im learning the knowledge, I have most of the tools, all that was left was choosing a caliber and finding a donor gun to hack up.
I knew that whatever caliber I chose, wasnt going to be an African safari round. I would serve me almost zero purpose in southern Michigan, which used to be a shotgun-only zone for big game hunting...but like many other Midwestern states, about a decade or so ago they legalized the use of certain straight wall rifle cartridges. The caveat being that the case length had to be between 1.16" and 1.80" so that limits my possibilities ALMOST exclusively to pistol rounds.....almost. Some states allow the .45-70, .38-55, .444/.450 Marlin, etc but theyre all too long to use in Michigan, (southern Michigan, I mean. Up north you can use whatever you want) in fact, I just had a Marlin 1895 .444 rechambered to .445 Super Mag so I could legally hunt with it but thats beside the point. The point is, if Im going to put all the time, effort, and money into building a double rifle, its not going to be a safe-queen. It had to be something I could use. A guy I have been in contact with that lives out west, just developed a Michigan-compliant round based on the .45-70. The case was shortened to 1.8" and he loads it with a faster burning powder. In testing he found that it maintained all the ballistics (energy and velocity) of the factory .45-70 without raising the chamber pressure...much. I think he said he calculated the pressure at around 32K PSI. He calls it the .458 Thor Hammer (he named it right after the .360 Buckhammer was released, LOL). So thats it. Thats the caliber Im going with. I reached out to Pacific Tool and Gauge and they are in the process of building me a chamber reamer. I also reached out to Lee Precision to have custom loading dies made.
Now I need a gun. I had a pretty good list of boxes that would need to be checked if a shotgun was going to make a decent (and safe) rifle. In my research I found that it had to have a double underbite and some sort of a third lockup, Greener crossbolt being ideal but at least a dolls head or a concealed fastener if nothing else. It had to be nitro-proofed, it had to have striker bushings. A few boxes I added that were more personal preference than anything was that it had to have a pistol grip (pommel grip) stock with a cheek piece. It had to have engraving, and it had to be under $1000. I originally thought it had to have ejectors too but ejectors and extractors both have their pros and cons and I wasnt going to let that be a deal-breaker. I did find out that the Bnro ZP47s checked nearly all the boxes...and I did find a couple, they just looked really bland to me....but thats the route I was going to go, Id just teach myself how to engrave. LOL.
Then I found a Greifelt 16ga. Now THAT was a cool looking gun. It checked all the boxes except one, it didnt have striker bushings. On the plus side, the firing pins arent ridiculously large like I have seen on some shotguns, I have heard of guys using the factory shotgun pins on rifle primers without any issues....but there is also a chapter in the book about how to make and install them, so I didnt let that sway me from buying it. It was nitro proofed, it had a Greener crossbolt, a decently gusseted frame, the breech wings are a nice touch, and I loved the engraving on it. Some really nice shotguns have pheasants and rabbits and stuff on them. Which wont work for a big game rifle, but this one is just.....nice. I dont know how else to put it. Another plus was that I was kind of trying to stay away from Spanish guns (per the advice from Aaron Little, a gunsmith that has done more than a few of these), I wanted one that was made in Belgium, Czechoslovakia, or Germany...and this one was made in Germany.
So I guess thats it. Time to roll up the sleeves and get the hacksaw out. Wish me luck.
I do welcome advice and tips and from others with experience. Tell me those things you wish you would have known the first time you did a conversion....because I already have an idea on what caliber I want the next one to be. *wink*


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DarylS
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375666 - 29/03/23 06:25 AM

Welcome to the forum. Quite a different type of intro.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JudoFire
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Reged: 10/02/23
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: DarylS]
      #375667 - 29/03/23 06:38 AM

Ha! Yeah, I guess. The only reason I even found this forum was because it showed up in my search results when I was researching the build. Liked what I saw, decided to join. LOL.

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DarylS
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375669 - 29/03/23 04:20 PM

It's a good place with good people.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ahmed577
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Reged: 13/06/13
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: DarylS]
      #375672 - 29/03/23 10:31 PM

I started in same spot at 10 years of age.

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bwanabobftw
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Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 666
Loc: Texas
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: Ahmed577]
      #375675 - 30/03/23 01:43 AM

Welcome and good luck with your build !!!!!!! I hope you will post pictures of it along the way.

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JudoFire
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Reged: 10/02/23
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #375676 - 30/03/23 02:07 AM

I will post pics. I dont even have the gun yet, I just bought it on Gunbroker yesterday. Here are a couple of photos from the listing.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/p...&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/p...0&fit=bound
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/p...&fit=bounds


Edited by JudoFire (30/03/23 02:12 AM)


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crshelton
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #375677 - 30/03/23 02:19 AM

Judofire,
Thanks for a good introduction.
You seem to be off to a good start.
Keep it up and you should end up with a nice rifle or rifles.
I used some of the same references and ended up with a couple of nice big bores. They were both regulated by Aaron little and are very accurate.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: crshelton]
      #375682 - 30/03/23 07:18 AM

With chamber pressures that the developer of the cartridge you have chosen "Thinks" it will develop you need an action with firing pins discs. The Brno zp 47 / 49 actions built in the late 1950 and early 1960 are very well suited. It is made of through hardened high quality alloy steel.

You can view some of the work on a double rifle I built using a zp 49 action.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=297834&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Search this forum for posts by Ron Vella of Canada who also used the zp 49 actions for such a project.

In regards to books that might recommend threading barrels to screw into the mono-bloc of a set of shotgun barrels: it is a poor idea not wise as it decreases strength. Also adding firing pin discs to an action made without them weakens the action. Actions made without firing pin discs originally have considerable recesses milled in the back of the action to have room for the hammers with firing pin nose/pins. Therefore drilling away the face of the action even further removes metal and causes weakness.

Here is one of Ron Vella's many posts to this forum:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=185191&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Your background, training and shop equipment appear sound to learn to do what you will have to do. However, the regulating of the barrels to shoot to a certain grouping at a designated range will be the issue you will have the most learning. As such I do want to comment on the cartridge selection you are proceeding with. Shortening a .45-70 cartridge is counter intuitive in double rifle building as the longer standard .45-70 cartridge can be loaded to many configurations and having room for enough propellant in the cartridge case is very useful in regulating the barrels in the finish double rifle. Regulating barrels is a task not to be taken without considerable thought and that thought begins before you make the first mechanical action in your workshop--the decision on how much convergence do you build into he muzzles of the barrels for the velocity of the projectile that you have selected. Regulating barrels on a double rifle can be a done in a few hours or can be two monthsif the cartridge is not suitable.

It appears that maybe if your cartridge will not regulate you can lengthen the chambers to standard .45-70.

Stephen Howell

Edited by transvaal (30/03/23 01:47 PM)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: transvaal]
      #375687 - 30/03/23 06:12 PM

Stephen:
from JudoFire's first post:

Quote:

like many other Midwestern states, about a decade or so ago they legalized the use of certain straight wall rifle cartridges. The caveat being that the case length had to be between 1.16" and 1.80" ... Some states allow the .45-70 ... but they're too long to use in Michigan



...otherwise the full-length .45-70 would be a no-brainer!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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transvaal
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: Marrakai]
      #375692 - 31/03/23 12:24 AM

Quote:

Stephen:
from JudoFire's first post:

Quote:

like many other Midwestern states, about a decade or so ago they legalized the use of certain straight wall rifle cartridges. The caveat being that the case length had to be between 1.16" and 1.80" ... Some states allow the .45-70 ... but they're too long to use in Michigan



...otherwise the full-length .45-70 would be a no-brainer!




Marrakai;

Thanks for pointing that out.

JudoFire;

Send me a PM if you want to discuss your project and how to build and keep from problems.

Stephen Howell

Edited by transvaal (31/03/23 12:25 AM)


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JudoFire
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Reged: 10/02/23
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: transvaal]
      #375696 - 31/03/23 03:26 AM

Transvaal,
Thanks for those links. I had read through Rons thread but hadnt seen yours yet.
I am aware of the importance of being able to adjust bullet velocity to help in regulation if its necessary. Unfortunately my hands are tied with local laws. However, there is a pretty decent bullet selection out there in that caliber. They range from 300 grains to 500 grains and maybe even heavier. Obviously the powder volume can be adjusted a little bit as well but so can the burn rate of the powder. I probably cant go any faster than what the developer used, but I could slow it down. *shrugs*


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375699 - 31/03/23 03:56 AM

The .460 S&W Mag is 1.8" long, but of course, much too high pressure. Downloading it suitably, might not produce the power level you need.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JudoFire
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Reged: 10/02/23
Posts: 11
Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: DarylS]
      #375700 - 31/03/23 04:46 AM

Quote:

The .460 S&W Mag is 1.8" long, but of course, much too high pressure. Downloading it suitably, might not produce the power level you need.




Yessir. You are exactly right. That cartridge did cross my mind but at 65K PSI, its a bit more than what I want to try with a shotgun action.
....and like you said, if you downloaded it to around 40K, you would be right there with a .44 Rem Mag. Personally, if I was going to that, Id just go with a .500 Linebaugh, those are even less pressure yet. Around 30K if I remember right. Its almost twice the energy as a .44 mag and at a lower pressure.


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DarylS
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375704 - 31/03/23 06:58 AM

Yes, I agree - the use of the .348 Winchester case in the .500 Linebaugh would be a good step in strength. They are VERY heavily structured.
The larger the calibre, the better the power for any 1.8" case.
A 20 bore rifled tube would be even better, power-wise in a 1.8" case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JudoFire
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Reged: 10/02/23
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Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: DarylS]
      #375705 - 31/03/23 07:25 AM

Wait until you see what I have up my sleeve for the next build. I would do it on this build but I already have the .458 chamber reamer being made.
Without going into too much detail, the parent case for the next build will be the .50-70. They're already compliant in factory form at 1.75" case length, but I have an idea on how to improve it a bit while maintaining its compliance. It'll be my Michigan version of a half-inch rifle.


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DarylS
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375706 - 31/03/23 08:30 AM

.50/70 is a good one. I don't know if it's still available, but the old Accurate Arms handloading manual had smokeless data for the .50/70. Best listed was using (I think) the 450gr. Barnes (or Lyman 450 cast) and AA2015 powder, for 1,800fps+. It was impressive.
All I shot in mine, was black powder, in deference to the 1859 Sharps barrel I was using in the 1868 copied Italian cast 4140 action. That barrel was lined and turned into a .50/70 in the 1867 contract the Gvt. had with Sharps on rifle and carbine conversions to CF.
That old barrel put 5 450's into 3" at 100 meters (109yards) with 10gr. IMR3031 and 60gr. of 1F GOEX. 3 of them were inside 1 1/2". Shot dirty, no wiping- none needed with the 3031 starter.
.348 brass can also be used in that chambering, however it would be better if the chamber was sized to the .348 brass head size as in the original .50/70 chamber, there will be a lot of case web expansion for the .348 brass to blow out to fit.
I think Starline makes .50/70 brass, available at Buffalo Arms.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: DarylS]
      #375713 - 31/03/23 01:53 PM

Do you have barrels yet?
I have a pair of Adams & Bennett F44 contour 1 in 14” that I had set aside for a similar build but I think I’m more suited to working on motorcycles… or bicycles…
They aren’t the highest quality but also not the highest cost.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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JudoFire
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: Huvius]
      #375716 - 31/03/23 09:35 PM

Quote:

Do you have barrels yet?





No sir, I do not. When the gun arrives, I will take some measurements, draw up a 3D model of the barrel, and send the dimensions in to have 100% completed barrels made. Well, everything but the bluing. In fact, I already have my model started and I dont even have the gun yet. Hahaha.
Im not sure if your barrels will work for me or not but shoot me a PM and Ill see what I can do about relieving you of them if I can make them work.


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MiBruce
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375801 - 03/04/23 10:15 PM

I find it interesting that you mentioned the 460 S&W case. I owned a Frank Wesson Long Range barrel in the 45-60 Wesson target cartridge. I got rid of the barrel, but ended up building a new version on one of Steve Earle's repro actions. I had a chamber reamer made for it and when I went looking for brass, realized that the 460 S&W case had the exact same dimensions, but was 1.8" long instead of the 2.0" of the Wesson cartridge. I use the S&W cases with the bullet seated out a little longer and it shoots great. I also live in Michigan and have used this rifle to fit into the lower Michigan deer regulation cartridge options. The barrel is marked 45-60 Wesson, so it reduces the possibilities of someone deciding to shoot full power S&W ammo in it. Just something to consider.
Bruce


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JudoFire
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: MiBruce]
      #375839 - 04/04/23 10:34 PM

Quote:

I find it interesting that you mentioned the 460 S&W case. I owned a Frank Wesson Long Range barrel in the 45-60 Wesson target cartridge. I got rid of the barrel, but ended up building a new version on one of Steve Earle's repro actions. I had a chamber reamer made for it and when I went looking for brass, realized that the 460 S&W case had the exact same dimensions, but was 1.8" long instead of the 2.0" of the Wesson cartridge. I use the S&W cases with the bullet seated out a little longer and it shoots great. I also live in Michigan and have used this rifle to fit into the lower Michigan deer regulation cartridge options. The barrel is marked 45-60 Wesson, so it reduces the possibilities of someone deciding to shoot full power S&W ammo in it. Just something to consider.
Bruce




Im not familiar with the .45-60 Wesson. Sounds like an interesting route to go. I have read some other forums where guys are trimming down .45-70 cases to compliant length but still loading them at factory COAL. I didnt want to go that route, it doesnt leave much bullet left in the case unless you go with a long, and therefor, heavy bullet. The length difference between your .45-60 and the .460 brass isnt as much. Im sure it works fine for you.
The guy that developed this wildcat .458 not only shortened the case, but he shortened the COAL. He is firing his test rounds out of a factory .45-70 chamber but I do have a custom chamber reamer ordered. I had tossed around the idea of just reaming this rifle to .45-70, that way I could fire .full-length 45-70 Govt rounds out of it if/when I ever went hunting somewhere that didnt have the case-length restriction....but since the developer created this round with all the same ballistics as the factory .45-70, there really wasnt any reason to do a .45-70 chamber...and by making a custom chamber machined FOR that round, it would be a little more accurate and efficient. Not only that, but if the possum cops wanted to argue that I was hunting with a .45-70, even though I would firing compliant rounds out of it, there is nothing to tell him/her that I wasnt carrying .45-70 rounds somewhere in a different pocket. LOL. So to avoid that whole confrontation, Ill just build it so a .45-70 wont fit.
In researching your .45-60 Wesson, I came across the .45-60 WCF. I thought about trying to find that brass and trimming it down (less to trim than a .45-70) but they are not only harder to find than .45-70 brass, they have just enough of a shoulder on them, that they would have to be fire-formed into a straight wall. Its not MUCH of a shoulder, just a few thousandths, but it is a shoulder nonetheless....and with the head stamp reading ".45-60 WCF", it could bring about another law enforcement issue....IF the officer asked to see my ammo and IF they knew that factory .45-60s had a shoulder (highly unlikely but still....)


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DarylS
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375851 - 05/04/23 01:38 AM

Uberti and others make a model 1876 repro chambered in several ctgs. the .45/60 (1.9"), .45/75 (1.9") and .50/95 (1.9"). I have the .50/95 while my bro has the .45/60.
I could easily trim the brass to 1.8" (but usually to 1.85").
My rifle runs 368gr. cast at 1,650fps.
My bro's rifle puts 340gr. out at close to the same vel. using 3031 powder, seems to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: JudoFire]
      #375852 - 05/04/23 01:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have barrels yet?





No sir, I do not. When the gun arrives, I will take some measurements, draw up a 3D model of the barrel, and send the dimensions in to have 100% completed barrels made. Well, everything but the bluing. In fact, I already have my model started and I dont even have the gun yet. Hahaha.
Im not sure if your barrels will work for me or not but shoot me a PM and Ill see what I can do about relieving you of them if I can make them work.




I pulled the barrels out and to my surprise (I guess one could call it that) the rifling is more what I'd call a "Swirl" rather than nice cut rifling.
There was some talk back in the day about these A&B barrels being some other maker's seconds. Wouldn't surprise me looking at them.

I certainly wouldn't commit to a double build with these in the hope that they shoot!
Maybe I'll use them or one on something else...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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JudoFire
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Re: My First Double Rifle Build...Here We Go. [Re: Huvius]
      #375854 - 05/04/23 03:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have barrels yet?





No sir, I do not. When the gun arrives, I will take some measurements, draw up a 3D model of the barrel, and send the dimensions in to have 100% completed barrels made. Well, everything but the bluing. In fact, I already have my model started and I dont even have the gun yet. Hahaha.
Im not sure if your barrels will work for me or not but shoot me a PM and Ill see what I can do about relieving you of them if I can make them work.




I pulled the barrels out and to my surprise (I guess one could call it that) the rifling is more what I'd call a "Swirl" rather than nice cut rifling.
There was some talk back in the day about these A&B barrels being some other maker's seconds. Wouldn't surprise me looking at them.

I certainly wouldn't commit to a double build with these in the hope that they shoot!
Maybe I'll use them or one on something else...




Sounds like polygonal rifling. They more of a "hills and valleys" profile than lands and grooves. There are arguments about the benefits of it. Either way, I dont think its "wrong". Just depends on your perspective. Supposedly they seal better on larger bore rounds but Im just regurgitating what Wikipedia says about them. I have no personal experience.


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