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sportingrifle
.224 member


Reged: 13/09/05
Posts: 15
Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame
      #37539 - 15/09/05 02:40 PM

Hi to all. Newbiw on this great forum. I am a hobby gunsmith who has built a dozen or so bolt action rifles and restocked another half dozen or so double shotguns. Partly to test my gunsmithing abilities and partly to frustrate our Canadian Firearms beurocrats, (I'm sorry sir, our records don't show that manufacturer ever making a gun in those products. We will have to spend a good chunk of our budget looking into this!) I would like to build a 3 barrel set based on a Fox Sterlingworth. The barrels would be the existing 12 bore plus one in 303 and one ind 450 BPE. I calculated the backthrust on the standing breach from a stiff 12 bore shell and both the 303 and 450 BPE are both slightly less. Unfortunately the 450 Nitro is somewhat more, explaining partly how sideclips may have become added to double rifles. I have learned a lot reading the forums and Ellis's book but I still have 2 questions.

1)Should the firing pins be turned to standard rifle dimensions and then bushed with gas escape channels in the standing breech? A couple of gunsmiths have suggested this as well as F.DeHaas in his book on re-chambering old single shot rifles. Has anyone had any experience with unbushed firing pins, good or bad?

2)Does anyone have a good recipe for a nitro for black load that duplicates the original 450 BPE? Would the 45-120 Sharps data be a good place to start?

Thanks again for the great forum,

Sportingrifle in the frozen North.



"Any man who would trade his liberty for a few pieces of gold, deserves neither and will probably lose both."

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: sportingrifle]
      #37551 - 15/09/05 10:16 PM

IMHO bushed firing-pins are less necessary these days than they were a century ago. Modern primers rarely pierce, and a new chamber and modern brass should never let gas escape. However, if it ever did happen, you will almost certainly split the stock at the head, and in the worst case, could lose an eye. Your choice! The Scott-style gas-escape grooves in the standing-breech might not help as much as the original designer intended, but they would certainly be better than nothing. In any case, it will be necessary to examine the firing-pins very closely and make sure they are properly rounded, and don't protrude any more than necessary.

The best nitro-for-black loads are straight out of Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle". Sounds like your library lacks a copy, which you will need to rectify! Mandatory reference for loading doubles chambered for Brit cartridges, both BP and nitro.

70-grains Varget beneath a 350gr jacketed projectile will regulate in 99% of doubles chambered for the .450 x 3 1/4 Express. A polyurathane-foam or saddle-felt wad (or two!) will be needed to take up the air-space. Velocity should be around 1950 to 1970 fps, and chamber-pressure will only be around 85% of that generated by the original BP loading.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Otto
.300 member


Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: sportingrifle]
      #37552 - 15/09/05 10:17 PM

I've built a 450 NE on a J.P.Sauer scalloped boxlock ejector 16ga. I've a friend building a rifle on the Sterlingworth. He's balking at the lockup, noting that the actual locking surface is tiny. The Sauer has double underbite, crossbolt, and heavy sideclips. I've fired 200+ nitro loads thru the Sauer with no problems. Also, the 16 ga frame is perfect for a 450, where the Fox is pretty chunky. My Sauer weighs 10 1/2 lb with mercury recoil reducer in the butt and balances just forward of the hinge pin. There's a ton of work involved here and starting with a proper action is a decision you won't regret! I bought my Sauer from an on-line auction with bores ravaged by pitting. The action was perfect, the engraving superb, and the wood, though broken behind the action, was repairable with incredible figure. I think the Fox may be marginal regarding action strength and desirability when finished. Just the opinion of a guy who's done one!

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: Otto]
      #37554 - 15/09/05 10:42 PM

Otto:
If your ex-16-bore Sauer will handle the full nitro load at 17 tons, there's a good chance that the Sterlingworth will handle a 'nitro-for-black' load at only 9 tons. Having said that, I wouldn't be comfortable without a third bite of some kind, and the Greener cross-bolt is unarguably the best.

Sportingrifle:
You will note that Ellis-Brown will not build double rifles on any American-made shotgun actions. There is probably a good reason for this!

Its just a thought, but I suspect that German shotguns in general might well have finer firing-pins more suited to the rifle conversion. In my experience, many American shotties, most Belgian clunkers, and pretty-well all hammer-guns have oversized firing-pin holes which would definitely need bushing to be safe.

You may have already seen this (everyone else has!) but here's a web-yarn about a .577 light nitro built on a shotgun action, for your interest: Click Here. I find myself carrying that rifle afield more and more these days: Hunting Yarn, and another. Hope you guys have as much fun with yours as I have with mine!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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sportingrifle
.224 member


Reged: 13/09/05
Posts: 15
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: sportingrifle]
      #37736 - 18/09/05 06:01 AM

Thanks for your replies. Most interesting and thought provoking. I wanted to go with the fox as I happen to have one with junker barrels already. Will give it a go and worst case scenario is that I learn something usefull to post here! Thanks again, Kevin.

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: sportingrifle]
      #37777 - 18/09/05 11:44 PM

Just remember to proof the gun in a safe way before you try shooting it from the shoulder. I know this should be obvious but sometimes in excitement these things get overlooked.

I built my first DR on a Lefever Nitro Special 12 guage action. It was built in 38-55. Well if you're not familiar the only has a single lock-up. Lets just say that smokeless loads during proofing proved to be a "little" too much. If it had been from the shoulder I might have been hurting when it opened up. Now it is used with black powder for plinking.

Anyway be safe.

BB

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: Marrakai]
      #37825 - 20/09/05 04:46 AM

In reply to:

Sportingrifle:
You will note that Ellis-Brown will not build double rifles on any American-made shotgun actions. There is probably a good reason for this!





Sportingrifle, I think there is a good reason for that! With the exception of some of the doubles made by Galazan, there are no doubles made in the USA that I would consider for a basis for a double rifle chambered for anything bigger than a 218 BEE. I find that the best shotgun actions for converting to double rifles are the German ones. Most of the combination, double rifles, verlings and drillings, are made on the same actions that are used in their shotguns. Most Britt S/S shotguns are made on very light actions, and though are fine shotguns, will often destroy themselves with HIGH BRASS heavy shotgun loads. They are mostly designed for pass shooting at small game birds, and are absolutely the finest shotguns for that purpose money can buy. But the actions arenot generally suited to double rifle use.

In reply to:

Marrakai: Its just a thought, but I suspect that German shotguns in general might well have finer firing-pins more suited to the rifle conversion. In my experience, many American shotties, most Belgian clunkers, and pretty-well all hammer-guns have oversized firing-pin holes which would definitely need bushing to be safe.




I agree with you on ALL American made shotguns! They are not only rough, but have no real lock-up. The fireing pins look more like railroad cross-ties than fireing pins. They will become self-openers, not by intention of the builder, but simply because they are not designed for anything more powerful that a shotgun shell. I find the strongest shotgun actions to be German, and every double rifle I have built, only three were not German, and they were Italian, but were chambered for small cartridges with the largest being a 30-30 Win from a 20 ga Laurona S/S. I have never had a problem with one of the half dozen I've owned, or the six I've built on shotgun actions. It is my opinion, if you want to build a double rifle on a shotgun action, and you want it to be anything of value when you finish, then you must start with a good, and strong shotgun, then do the things that need doing to make it safe, and worth you time!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #37828 - 20/09/05 05:54 AM

Dugaboy,

I can't agree more with you post. It sums up everything really well for the home builder. As I stated above I went into my initial build with out doing a lot of research first. I was fortunate because I always take that extra step of proofing the gun so I didn't hurt myself.

Anyway on to more important things. With the exception of the first the others have been on JP Sauer or Simson. I've been pretty fortunate in finding them at great prices. However I'm not expecting that to be like that forever and have been looking around for other actions. Have you seen the new CZ shotguns (Huglu)? They are double under bite with a greener crossbolt. I shot one and it seemed alright and it got me to wondering how the actions would be for a DR build. I mean after all you can get them for $500, and they have different action sizes for each gauge. Just wondering if you or anyone else had tried one yet.

BB

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #38006 - 23/09/05 11:59 PM

In reply to:

Most Britt S/S shotguns are made on very light actions, and though are fine shotguns, will often destroy themselves with HIGH BRASS heavy shotgun loads. They are mostly designed for pass shooting at small game birds, and are absolutely the finest shotguns for that purpose money can buy. But the actions arenot generally suited to double rifle use.


Dugaboy:
I think your statement needs some qualification. There are a number of different styles of British shotgun, of which the 'game-gun' described above is only one. Fowlers and pigeon-guns are not quite as common as game-guns, but plenty of them made their way to the colonies, and they are exactly the opposite of your description. Most are heavy (7 1/2 to 8 lbs), are proved for the 1 1/4 oz load, and have long action-bars and heavily-constructed breeches. Many have a third bite of some kind, and side-clips are common. Sounds like the perfect candidate for a DR conversion to me!

Here's a comparison between a typical Brit game-gun on the right (albeit proved for 1 1/4 oz) and a typical duck-gun on the left. Note the length and thickness of the lumps/slots, and the relative length of the action-bar.


Greener 'Empire' duck gun on left, Charles Hellis game-gun on the right.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: Marrakai]
      #38029 - 24/09/05 11:24 AM

This thread on Ithaca NIDs just popped up on the DoubleGun board yesterday: might be of interest here. They are probably talking about BP-proved guns, not sure. We don't have much experience with pre-war American shotguns here in Oz.

Cracked Frames

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
.577 light nitro [Re: Marrakai]
      #47709 - 24/01/06 07:31 AM

Marrakai,

I'm interested in building a .577 light nitro or a .577 BPE on a brit. shotgun action. I have found a few candidates, one is a Greener D25 and the other is a Midland. Do you recomend 12 and 10 only?


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: Otto]
      #47778 - 24/01/06 06:06 PM

Were did you get the barrels? Did you have them sleaved?

Thanks,
Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: .577 light nitro [Re: bonanza]
      #47786 - 24/01/06 07:37 PM

Bonanza:
The bigger the shotgun-action you can use, the better. Not because you need strength, but because you need weight! A .577 light nitro or BP double needs to be up around 10-pounds to be comfortable to shoot all day, and you can't get that in a 20-bore frame unless you keep lots of weight in the barrels themselves. Heavy barrels kill the handling completely, and the gun will not be 'lively' to shoot. A quick-handling double simply must have most of its weight between the hands, not out in front of the forward hand.

A heavy action and light muzzles is the secret!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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doublegunfan
.275 member


Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: .577 light nitro [Re: Marrakai]
      #47821 - 25/01/06 01:50 AM

Guys,

Follow Marrakai's advice as closely as possible! I am trying to do that on my own project gun, which is, incidentaly, based on a 12 gauge action.
In fact, it seems that when you balance a DR correctly, you don't feel it as heavy as the scale indicates. It is heavy, but points naturally and is quick on the shoulder.
And this is the essence and beauty of a double rifle.

Fred

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akrange
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Reged: 20/12/05
Posts: 41
Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: Marrakai]
      #47916 - 25/01/06 01:55 PM

Marrakai,

Would a Basson Boxlock 2 5/8 12ga with side clips and third fastener be a canidate for a conversion to these chamberings..

AK

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: akrange]
      #47960 - 25/01/06 10:01 PM

Well, I had to Google that! Found the one on Griffin & Howe's site of course. Made in France wouldn't ordinarily be a big plus, and it is relatively light weight at under 6 1/2 lbs, and has a fairly short action bar. Despite the side-clips and cross-bolt, it is probably still a game-gun. It could be OK, but if it was me I'd still be looking for something better.

Fine for a lighter cartridge though, a sweet .32-40 perhaps?

I'll bet its even pretty good as a shotgun!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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akrange
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Reged: 20/12/05
Posts: 41
Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: Building 450 BPE on Fox Sterlingworth frame [Re: Marrakai]
      #47991 - 26/01/06 03:43 AM

Marrakai,

Sorry about the lack of info but I thought I had enough bases for a opinion/review from you..I do like reading Your posts and I know their time consuming to put together.. I'll try to give the full extent of what I know in My future Questions.. This type of project interests Me. I hope You'll continue to Mentor me.. I'll be looking forward to future posts on this and other ideas..
Thanks,
AK

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