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buckstix
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I found a Johann Peterlongo Mauser Safari rifle in 11.2x72
      #375211 - 17/03/23 11:00 AM

I FOUND A JOHANN PETERLONGO MAUSER SAFARI RIFLE IN 11.2x72 CALIBER

I have been searching for quite some time for Big Bore rifles that were built in my birth Country of Austria,

Well, I just added this one to my collection. It looks unfired in 99% original condition. Brought to the U.S. from Austria by family's grandfather - and likely never fired because there was no ammo available in this country.

Please comment and decipher all the markings for me. I'm still smiling ear to ear.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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grandveneur
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375233 - 17/03/23 07:25 PM


According to Harald Wolf from Hatari Times, Peterlongo should have imported some Rifles caliber 11,2x72 Schüler from Suhl. The ammunition for that was supposedly manufactured in Bratislava under the name 11,2x71 Rapid, since there were import difficulties of ammunition from Germany to Austria at the time.

It seems that rifles of this caliber were also produced locally by Peterlongo. I am just wondering for whom and for what. Neither Germany nor Austria had any colonies at that time, Austria never anyway, and as far as exports are concerned, the cartridge 11,2x72 was not very competitive with cartridges such as the 404 Jeffery or 425 Westley Richards from the same period. Some rifles caliber 11,2x72 were certainly intended for export, mine is also marked for Lyon & Lyon in Calcutta, but it seems that many of them were no exported and that a lot of rifles caliber 11,2x72 must not have been in service, either in Africa or in India.


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buckstix
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
      #375234 - 17/03/23 09:18 PM

Hello grandveneur,
Thanks for the reply.

Contacts from Woodleigh have told me that they will NOT be making bullets in 11.2 caliber in the future because there is too little demand for .440 caliber to justify the expense of re-tooling when the Factory gets back into production.

Fortunately for me, I have been swaging my own bullets in .440 diameter because I own and shoot several Werndl rifles that use this diameter bullet. By using my swage dies I'm able to re-from the 400g 11.2 Woodleigh bullet with less taper so there is good neck tension even when the bullet is seated very deep into the case. The resulting re-swaged bullets look slightly similar to the Brenneke TUG bullets. In addition, I'm also able to re-swage 404 Jeffery bullets to increase the diameter from .422 diameter up to .440 diameter. Woodleigh indicated that they will be making 404 Jeffery bullets again because this is one of the most popular calibers in use today.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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grandveneur
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375235 - 17/03/23 09:35 PM

Bullets for this cartridge are a problem. It is a pity that Woodleigh stops the production.

The 401gr SP bullet from Woodleigh was the only one that was more or less easy to get in recent years, although it was not ideal for hunting big game. Luckily I don't need this rifle for hunting, I also bought it just for fun. In fact, only Degol in Belgium remains, if he is willing to make bullets to order.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
      #375236 - 17/03/23 09:57 PM

Nice buy Buckstix.

Quote:



It seems that rifles of this caliber were also produced locally by Peterlongo. I am just wondering for whom and for what. Neither Germany nor Austria had any colonies at that time, Austria never anyway, and as far as exports are concerned, the cartridge 11,2x72 was not very competitive with cartridges such as the 404 Jeffery or 425 Westley Richards from the same period. Some rifles caliber 11,2x72 were certainly intended for export, mine is also marked for Lyon & Lyon in Calcutta, but it seems that many of them were no exported and that a lot of rifles caliber 11,2x72 must not have been in service, either in Africa or in India.




Some German hunter definitely hunted in the British colonies.

I remember one hunter used a .500 Jeffery or Schuler (?) and a 7mm SEvH. I think it was between the two world wars.

It's correct to say the competition from other cartridges would have been great.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375237 - 17/03/23 10:03 PM

Quote:


Contacts from Woodleigh have told me that they will NOT be making bullets in 11.2 caliber in the future because there is too little demand for .440 caliber to justify the expense of re-tooling when the Factory gets back into production.




That's sad! One can expect a rationalisation of the Woodleigh line seeing they are going from not restarting at all to re-opening. The extensive line will no doubt miss more than a few of the lesser demanded bullets. One can hope ones own needs and some of the rarer ones still get made. Not just the most obvious cartridges as sold by Norma, Federal etc.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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buckstix
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: NitroX]
      #375238 - 17/03/23 10:40 PM

Quote:

That's sad! One can expect a rationalisation of the Woodleigh line seeing they are going from not restarting at all to re-opening. The extensive line will no doubt miss more than a few of the lesser demanded bullets. One can hope ones own needs and some of the rarer ones still get made. Not just the most obvious cartridges as sold by Norma, Federal etc.


Hello NitroX,
Thanks for the reply,

Cutting Edge did make bullets for 11.2 caliber, but their bullets are lathe turned. They made "450g Safari solids" and 400g Hollow Point "Safari Raptors". (I'm not sure if they are still making bullets in 11.2 caliber.) Hawk also makes 11.2 caliber bullets, but they are copper tubing with lead cores and not "Weld Core" like the Woodleigh bullets. Fortunately I have a bunch of the Cutting Edge bullets, and plenty of the Woodleigh bullets because I was very fortunate to get 650 bullets with the Schuler rifle that was posted about earlier. Now I only have 550 bullets left, because I helped a fellow forum member in need that was going to African later this year and wanted to use his 11.2x72 Schuler rifle for Cape Buffalo and other game.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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grandveneur
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: NitroX]
      #375239 - 17/03/23 10:44 PM

Quote:

Nice buy Buckstix.

...

Some German hunter definitely hunted in the British colonies.







That is certain and also known, among other things, from the reports on Safaris that were guided in Tanganyika between the two world wars by miss Margarete Trappe from the Momella Farm near Arusha. However, I do not know which weapons the German hunters in Africa used at the time.


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grandveneur
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375240 - 17/03/23 10:51 PM

Quote:

...
Cutting Edge still makes bullets for 11.2 caliber, but their bullets are lathe turned. They have "450g Safari solids" and 400g Hollow Point "Safari Raptors". Hawk also makes bullets, but they are not "Weld Core" like the Woodleigh bullets. Fortunately I have a bunch of the Cutting Edge bullets, and plenty of the Woodleighs because I was very fortunate to get 650 bullets with the Schuler rifle that was posted about earlier.






I know the bullets from Cutting Edge, but they are too long for the magazine of my rifle and the flat nose of the bullet tip does not allow a perfect and quick reloading.


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buckstix
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
      #375242 - 17/03/23 11:00 PM

Quote:

I know the bullets from Cutting Edge, but they are too long for the magazine of my rifle and the flat nose of the bullet tip does not allow a perfect and quick reloading.


Hello grandveneur,
Thanks for the reply.

Cutting Edge no longer shows the 11.2 caliber bullets on their web page, so I am not sure if they are still available. However, I've been loading with AR5744 powder which allows very deep seating of the Cutting Edge bullet in the case, and I am still able to get full-power loads.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375245 - 18/03/23 02:13 AM

I would say it came from Schüler, see the proofmark, maybe in parts, put together in Innsbruck and proofed in austria if there are no other Suhl proofmarks

the engraving says Suhl to me

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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DarylS
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: lancaster]
      #375249 - 18/03/23 03:52 AM

Cool beans, buckstix - lovely!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: DarylS]
      #375253 - 18/03/23 04:37 AM

Congratulations, Buckstix! You found a very rare, pre-WW1, rifle for the 11.2x72 Schüler cartridge still in original, unaltered shape.
The Peterlongo, Innsbruck, Austria business was run by Richard Mahrholdt since 1898, see:
https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/peterlongo-johann-of-innsbruck-austria/
(BTW, there is a 1908 ad for a “11.2 mm Peterlongo” Mauser for big game, but apparently still for a 11.2x60 Schüler, + some quotes from German colonial officials. It shows both half- and fullstock rifles like this one.)
Mahrholdt came from the Suhl area and had best connections to many German gunmakers.
This rifle was built on a commercial Mauser, Oberndorf action as sold to other gunmakers. The Mauser serial number 26311 dates the action to 1908. That’s the only German marking I see in the photos, everything else is Austrian. The completed rifle was proofed two times, preliminary and final Nitro proof, by the Ferlach, Austria proofhouse in1909. The barrel is made of steel from the Böhler steelworks in Kapfenberg, Austria. “11,3” mm is the rounded up groove diameter. I don’t know what the “C322” on the bolthandle and “A.R.” under the barrel stand for.
Imho this rifle was built entirely in Austria, Innsbruck or Ferlach. As the Mauser patents were still valid pre-WW1, any gunmaker had to buy an action from Oberndorf first to build a 98 action rifle.


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bwanabobftw
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: kuduae]
      #375258 - 18/03/23 08:42 AM

Congrats Buckstix, That’s a really cool old rifle. Hope you can get some ammo loaded up and take it hunting !!!!!!!!!

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buckstix
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #375266 - 18/03/23 12:10 PM

Quote:

Congratulations, Buckstix! You found a very rare, pre-WW1, rifle for the 11.2x72 Schüler cartridge still in original, unaltered shape ...... I don’t know what the “C322” on the bolt handle and “A.R.” under the barrel stand for.
Imho this rifle was built entirely in Austria, Innsbruck or Ferlach. As the Mauser patents were still valid pre-WW1, any gunmaker had to buy an action from Oberndorf first to build a 98 action rifle.


Hello kuduae,
Thanks for the reply.

Its hard to see in the picture .. the bolt handle number is numbered "6328" which does not match the rifle action number of "26311". However, there is a small number "10" on the other side of the bolt handle. You can see in the pictures the same number "10" on the bottom of the action and on the bottom of the barrel. There is also a number "10" on the wedge. The trigger-guard assembly is numbered "311" which matches the last 3 numbers of the action number. I added a picture of the magazine spacer which is made of steel, not brass like those on the Schuler made rifles.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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grandveneur
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375279 - 18/03/23 08:16 PM

Usually the magazin-spacer is made of brass and not steel. However, there will always have been deviations depending on where spare parts were procured.

The magazine-spacer of my rifle is made of brass, the barrel shape is also typical for a rifle from Auguste Schüler, but the stock deviates a little from the typical german stocks of this time, and the Mauser 98 system is marked with the anchor sign of Krieghoff. According to Harald Wolf from Hatari Times, Krieghoff is also said to have built in Suhl rifle caliber 11,2x72. These weapons should look different than those of Schüler.


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lancaster
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: grandveneur]
      #375280 - 18/03/23 10:59 PM

any firm in Suhl is suspect to have build rifles in 11,2x72. if a customer make an order it would happen.
my own rifle in 11,2x60 Schüler was build from Ernst Steigleder in the typical fashion this firm was making Mauser hunting rifles. he got the barrel maybe from the same barrel maker who make also the barrels for Schüler. and maybe the chamber reamer was borrow from Schüler for this one rifle.
most of the gunmaker familys were related there anyway.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: lancaster]
      #375282 - 18/03/23 11:23 PM

Quote:

Its hard to see in the picture .. the bolt handle number is numbered "6328" which does not match the rifle action number of "26311". However, there is a small number "10" on the other side of the bolt handle. You can see in the pictures the same number "10" on the bottom of the action and on the bottom of the barrel. There is also a number "10" on the wedge. The trigger-guard assembly is numbered "311" which matches the last 3 numbers of the action number. I added a picture of the magazine spacer which is made of steel, not brass like those on the Schuler made rifles.




I take the „10“ as an assembly number by the shop that put the rifle together. Such assembly numbers served the purpose of keeping the fitted parts sorted during futher steps of hardening, polishing, bluing and so on.
Apparently the gunsmithes did not care much about keeping bought in Mauser parts sorted by Mauser serial numbers. It’s not unusual to find parts of several Mauser actions combined in one pre-WW1 rifle. Here the bolt from action number 26328 was used to complete action number 26311. Another such mixup may be seen in an old thread about a 9.3x62 rifle by Foerster, Berlin. On that rifle receiver and bottom metal of two 1908 commercial Mauser actions were combined with an even older Mauser bolt, see:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post231353


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buckstix
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: kuduae]
      #375327 - 20/03/23 10:12 AM

Thank you kuduae,

I appreciate the detailed information.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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themauserkid
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: buckstix]
      #375339 - 21/03/23 07:13 AM

Nice rifle, what does the bottom of the bolt root look like?

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buckstix
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Re: Would you believe I found this - A Johann Peterlongo 11.2x72 [Re: themauserkid]
      #375346 - 21/03/23 01:19 PM

Quote:

Nice rifle, what does the bottom of the bolt root look like?


Hello themauserkid,
Thanks for the reply.

It has a small "10" stamped on it, just like the small "10" that's on the bottom of the barrel and on the bottom of the action. (see pictures above)

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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