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xyzzycoder
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Reged: 14/09/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
First Double Rifle - Where do I start?
      #37457 - 14/09/05 02:57 PM

Hello. This is my first post to the forum, and I joined primarily to learn how to best go about making an informed, first purchase of a double rifle. This seems like a more complicated purchase than I am used to with my other guns.

I am in Alaska, and while I do hunt and think it would be a real kick in the pants to go on Safari (suggestions on entry-level, value-oriented Safaris would also be interesting to me), I am probably not thinking of purchasing a double for hunting. I probably do not intend to hunt dangerous game in the near future.

I think for my purposes the rifle needs to be relatively inexpensive (for a double). I would prefer a caliber and make that will be in-demand, so the rifle will have a chance of appreciating. And, I would like it to look good. The engraving on some of the doubles I have seen is fantastic. I have seen some lighter caliber doubles that look especially fun (such as .30-06) as I might take them hunting - if I bought a double I could justify shooting (wouldn't severely impact the investment value). But, I'm not sure the lighter doubles are mainstream in that they really do not solve the problem for which doubles were created.

Probably what is making me want a double rifle is reading too many Capstick books on Safari, combined with being an irredeemable pack-rat and collector. I hope that's not a party foul. :-)

Where should I start? How do I educate myself?

A local gun shop has a new, .470 Merkel double in-stock. It is a beauty with ornate engraving of African animals and some gold inlay. They also have a .375 H&H Sarasqueta. The latter seems like a nice rifle, but very little information seems to be available on the manufacturer. And, with this type of purchase I want to know a lot more than I have found. I do not even know whether or not it is a quality gun and what would constitute a fair price.

Thanks in advance.


Aaron


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mickey
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37463 - 14/09/05 03:43 PM

Start Here
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=doubles&Number=37306&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Welcome to the Forum.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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MauserRifle
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37464 - 14/09/05 04:04 PM

xyzzycoder

Let me be the second to welcome you to this forum. I am sure you will find it not only enjoyable, but very educational.


mickey

You sure beat me to the punch on this one... Took the words right out on my mouth.

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37476 - 14/09/05 08:48 PM

Aaron

Welcome to the NitroExpress.com forums. If you are interested in looking and learning about double rifles with an eye to purchase you have come to the right place. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience in the membership here.

My comments would be first to decide your budget, as the sky is the limit. You mentioned engraving. Good engraving on the relatively lesser priced doubles is hard to find in my opinion. If I was looking for a user rifle I would go for a plainer rifle than some of the aweful engraving seen on budget priced rifles. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so if you like it, go for it.

Some of the modern brands with budget priced rifles include: Merkel; Krieghoff; Chapuis; Searcy; among others. Heym is another. Upgrades and more expensive options are also available of course. All of these makers and the others have proponents for and against. Look at what you are buying rather than the marketing hype. The best advice is to handle and if possible shoot them before deciding.

"Vintage" rifles are also available and have a great attraction. These are also more likely to appreciate in value if purchased at a wise price.

Modern prestige makers. Names such as Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, Purdey etc etc plus the German and Austrian makers - Ferlach etc - all still make bespoke doubles. At a price. For those guys able to afford them, go for it.

Side by side or Under and over are the two main configurations. Most prefer the side by side but an under and over in a medium calibre can be a nice double too. Then sidelocks, boxlocks, etc etc and other technical features. If you want to know more about these, do a review of the topics on this double rifle forum and you will find more detail than maybe you want.

Secondly just what do you aim to do with it. Now or in the future. Plinking - good forbid! Medium game hunting? Big game hunting and dangerous game in the future?

I could imagine lots of opportunites for a double in Alaska. From a medium calibre, such as a 7mm, .30, 8mm etc. But a upper medium or a smaller big bore would really shine I think. The great 9.3x74 mm Rimmed is very versatile and can be had in rifles cheaper than true big bores. The .375 and .400s also. The modern .500/.416 will become a true classic. These sorts of rifles will double for local hunting as well as international big game. Of course the true big bores starting with the .450's, .470's etc may be of attraction. They too can be used on medium sized game and a lot of members here do so. But they will be 'in their own' when oneday you do hunt big and dangerous game. What the big bore double was designed for.

If recoil is an issue, take note of that. A 9.3x74R is fairly mild and still very versatile.

Thirdly, do you intend to reload for it? This will make a BIG difference in possible choices and the $$$ required to regularly shoot one.

Fourth. Other considerations might include: do you want to scope it? A medium or smaller big bore double can be scoped in my opinion.

Don't rush into it and enjoy the selection process.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37482 - 14/09/05 09:51 PM

xyzzycoder:
All the advice so far is good. I would like to add, though, that your intended use might lend itself to the 'nitro-for-black' concept rather well. Black-powder proved doubles are considerably cheaper to buy than their nitro-express cousins, being considered generally unsuitable for hunting dangerous game, but are just as easy to load for, and much easier to shoot, than the big kickers.

A vintage Brit or European hammer double without lavish engraving should be obtainable for just a few grand. The Top Lever Hammer configuration is the most elegant IMHO, and even plain-finish guns often exhibit racy lines. If you can find one in .450, even better, as bullets are readily available in a variety of weights and configurations. This helps when trying to develop light-nitro loads. Buy Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle", which has whole chapters on safely loading black-powder doubles with light smokeless loads and jacketed bullets.

This is only a suggestion of course, but its what I would be considering in your position. Good luck whichever way you choose to go.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37483 - 14/09/05 09:55 PM

xyzzycoder,

Welcome to the group.

Take the time to read all the past posts on this forum. You will learn a lot.

Go where you can handle as many DR's as possible. There is no substitute for handling and shouldering these weapons.

Then take a deep breath and jump! We've all done it.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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clark7781
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37485 - 14/09/05 10:43 PM

Aaron:

Welcome the the club!

If you can, I would HIGHLY recommend that you try to attend the SCI convention in Reno this up coming January.

A discussion regarding the purchase of a double rifle will always talk about "fit" - or how the gun feels in your hands when you shoulder it. At SCI, all of the big DR makers will be there so you will be able to actually handle and shoulder their guns. Searcy, Merkel, Kreighoff, Heym, Chapuis, H&H, Westley Richards, Purdey, should all be in attendance.

If you can't get to Reno, the Dallas Safari Club is also another option, but it is not as big as SCI.

Also, Accurate Reloading (www.accuratereloading.com) a free site is also another resource for your research. You'll see a lot of the same faces there, but AR has a lot more members. There is also a lot of information on African Safaris there too.

If you ever get to Washington, DC, drop me a note and we'll take out my .500 NE.



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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luv2safari
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37495 - 15/09/05 03:05 AM

....coder,

I would start with a moderately priced quality SXS DR in 9,3X74R. The ammo is readily available and far less expensive than the heavy NE ammo. You can find excellent guns in the $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 range, and a SXS of quality will mever depreciate if properly cared for.

9,3X74R will handle anything in Alaska and almost everything in Africa. It is flexible and deadley. If you reload, you can shoot it for less than a buck a round. The 9,3X74R is my favorite round...it is low pressure, accurate with proper bullets, deadley, ecomonical, available, has moderate recoil, and is a Classic. Chapuis and Merkel make very nice moderately priced SXS DRs in this caliber.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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xyzzycoder
.224 member


Reged: 14/09/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37500 - 15/09/05 04:27 AM

Wow! I'm really impressed with the responses! Thank you to everyone for all the help and suggestions you have provided. I have read most of what was suggested.

Does anyone have any idea (ballpark) what would be a fair range of prices for the .375 H&H Sarasqueta double which is on sale locally?


Aaron


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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37505 - 15/09/05 05:15 AM

xyzzycoder

A bit more info would help.

Boxlock, Sidelock
Extractor, Ejector,
Condition of gun
Condition of bore
Wood to Metal fit
Fit and Finish
Sights / Scope

What price have they got on it ?

I would also question if 375H&H as a belted round would be the best
choice as a first gun - if not hunting DG may be OK.

500 Nitro





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xyzzycoder
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Reged: 14/09/05
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Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37506 - 15/09/05 05:50 AM

500,

I have found out very little about it, but here is what I have.

They're asking $7,500.
I believe it is a sidelock. There are plates which can be removed on the sides of the rifle to access the internals.
Ejectors
The gun seems to be in pristine condition throughout. I cannot tell if it has ever been fired. I saw no rust, scrapes, or dings in the metal or wood.
To the untrained eye the wood to metal fit seems to be tight. There are no gaps or open seams which I have noticed.
The rifle has a single set of open sights - no scope.


Aaron


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37511 - 15/09/05 06:16 AM

xyzzycoder

Firstly, can you update your profle with a State and Country.

1. I am not good on pricing in the US for this type of gun so
I'll leve it for others on this forum to comment. I tend to buy things
if I like them - within reason.

However IF it is a Sidelock Ejector in 375H&H then it sounds
good value to me.

I have a Sarasqueta (?Sp) Sidelock Ejector in 375H&H with a whole heap
of engraving on the plates.

Firstly - you need to check it is a SIDELOCK and not a Boxlock with
Side plates.

2ndly, check that it is tight and on the face - AND that it hasn't
been tightened - I don't mind guns that have been tightened properly
but I mean a gunshop tighten - look for any marks on the lumps
under the barrels.

Sarasqueta was a Spanish maker who made quite alot of Shotguns and
DR's. IMHO, he made some good guns but the occasional one that I would
not call "up to standard" - ie fit and finish were not that good.
They are NOT in the league of H&H, WR etc but good, middle of the road
using guns.

IMHO and this is subject to what others have to say on this forum,
AS A FIRST TIME BUYER I would probably steer you towrds a
Merkel or Chapuis in 9.3 x 74R - it will do everything the 375H&H
will do, it is a rimmed cartridge, more likely to be a newer gun.
Just a gut feel.

Hopefully Cpt Curl and others will chip in with some comments.

How does the gun "come up" and fit you when you throw it to the shoulder
as though snap shooting a Shotgun ?

Is the gun "balanced" for you - ie does it feel barrel heavy or butt heavy for you ?

Anyway, hope this helps. Fell free to post any more questions.

500 Nitro


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37513 - 15/09/05 06:48 AM

xyzzycoder
Welcome to the Forum.
Since you live in AK, and you are not buying this double primarly for an African trip, I highly recommend for your "first" double you get one in 9,3x74R. I have a Chapuis
and really like it. They come in different grades to fit your price range. You can also get an extra set of 20 ga bbls for it. I wish I had them for mine. I have 2 scopes in rings for my Chapuis. The pivot mount holds zero perfectly.
I have been hunting with mine for several years. I have hunted with it in TX, Montana, Idaho and Zimbabwe.
I have taken skunks, armadillo, turkey, bobcat, coyote, deer, wild pigs, black bear, impala [10 or 11], civet cat, jackel, kudu, waterbuck, klipspringer, and baboon.
With the scope I have taken game over 300 yards [kudu] and a coyote at 271.
I also have 2 British Big Bore doubles a 450 No2 and a 450/400 3 1/4". I have used the 400 in AK to take 2 caribou, and on a Griz bear hunt [no shots fired].

A 9,3x74R double would be great for the hunting you do in AK. While you are using it you can "study up" on which big bore you want.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37529 - 15/09/05 12:48 PM

I agree that a 9.3x74R would be a dandy.

I qualify that statement by saying that I think that caliber for use in North America is a reloading proposition. At least here in the eastern US you won't find those cartridges on the shelf of your local sporting goods store.

I have had several 9.3's, and I have shot hundreds of rounds through them. I think I have shot a total of 10 rounds of factory ammo in 9.3 in my whole life. Those 10 rounds came in a gun trade with my second 9.3.

No worry. I have been reloading since age 13. I don't shoot factory ammo in any caliber. Having said that, I will state seriously that shooting a double rifle requires the skill of tayloring your ammunition to that specific rifle. I think this is true even if your DR is chambered for a common cartridge such as .30/06. If you aren't into reloading, I suggest you stay with bolt guns.

Beyond that, the question of what would be a good start on a double rifle is wide open. I can tell you that my first DR was a really nice German boxlock (pre-WWI) chambered in 8x57JR. When I got it (about 1982) I had to really scrounge for bullets in .318". Now those bullets are no problem. The world is much kinder to DR's now than it was in 1982. For example, in 1982 it was almost impossible to find components for the 9.3x74R in the continental US. Now, no problem at all.

In the final analysis, my point is that only you can pick the right caliber for your needs, and only you can pic the right double rifle for your budget, sensibilities, and expected uses.

By all means, go for it!

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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new_guy
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37532 - 15/09/05 12:57 PM

xyzzycoder: there's a saying in the gun business (among high-end dealers) that it's easier to get rid of cancer than a spanish gun.

There are some very well made spanish guns out there (I've owned a few arrieta's myself), but they do take a hit come sale day, and many buyers will ignore them b/c they are "Spanish."

I say that b/c this is your first DR and realistically, you will end up selling it after you learn more about them, i.e.: what you like, what you don't like and what you want in the next one.

With that in mind, you should realize that a Spanish gun will be more difficult to sell, and they must be
priced right, with the right buyer to move them. Which means that you also have to buy them "right."

Case-in-point... This particular gun has been for sale for over a year now.

"Victor Sarasquetta Double Rifle i.470. Hand Detachable Sidelock SXS . 14 7/8 LOP Pad, Case Hardened Action with Full English Scroll. Ejectors. Pad. Gun was regulated by Champlin Arms to shoot 1 1/2 inch groups at 85 yards with Federal Ammo. Will shoot 3/ 4 inch groups with custom loads. Gun is overall 98% with some slight dings on stock. Case hardened action has 99% colors. Leather Case. $9000.00"

If you can get it cheap, (5K sounds "cheap" to me... 7.5K doesn't) then you probably can't lose... it's still a H&H sidelock DR. I would probably suggest something more "marketable" for your first DR.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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luv2safari
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: new_guy]
      #37536 - 15/09/05 02:22 PM

Does the Sarasqueta have game scene engraving or scroll engraving? If it has the game scene, it is the lesser of the two Model 13 Sidelocks, their "Standard" model and is worth about $5,000.00 to $6,000.00. The Sarasqueta Model 13 Deluxe is the exact same basic rifle, but with fine engraving and the finest walnut. It would be worth about $1,000.00 to $1,5000.00 more, all things being equal.

That Sarasqueta 470 NE that has been advertised for a year now started out at $10,000.00. I expect it to sell for around $7,000.00, tops. It is worth more in my opinion, but that is all the market will pay. They were fine rifles. The Deluxe sold for $750.00, and the standard for $450.00 back in the mid 1950s. I believe that the right trigger of the Deluxe was a set trigger, also.

Sarasqueta made rifles and shotguns of excellent quality that were imported for many years by Stoeger; some sold under Stoeger's own mark, Zeypher. These shotguns are still strong on the market when found.

The ONLY thing wrong with a Sarasqueta DR is getting rid of it, should you ever wish to. Alas, it has no snob appeal.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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wombat
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37550 - 15/09/05 09:16 PM

After years of consideration and the purchase of this and that I ended up buying a Searcy-it is the "fit" of a double
that gives it its magical powers-fit is everything.A Searcy is made to measure-something the old or off-the-shelf stuff
(good as many are) will never match.


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xyzzycoder
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Reged: 14/09/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37571 - 16/09/05 03:15 AM

I had a great evening moose hunt last night. A friend and I sat over a relatively open marsh. Five moose showed, but all were cows.

The highlight of the evening was coming out, when we jumped a black bear at close range. Could have used a double then. :-)

It was too good.

We plan to head to the same meadow tonight and try some calling.


Aaron


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xyzzycoder
.224 member


Reged: 14/09/05
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Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37575 - 16/09/05 04:13 AM

I found this on the web:

"The 375 H&H should have never been chambered in any double rifles, it runs to [sic] hot at 50 to 60,000 PSI and will shoot any double loose in a short time...all doubles should have a rim...."

Do you agree with this?


Aaron


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500Nitro
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37579 - 16/09/05 05:59 AM


For a DR that I would use on Dangerous game, I would say yes.
I don't think the extrction could be considered totally as positive
as a rim on a case.

However I own 2 x 375H&H Doubles but more for Non DG hunting
which I think they are fine for.

As for pressure - you can load them down so you are not near 50,000 psi.

If that was the case why would Holland's you chamber 300H&H, 375Fl Mag
etc etc.

Just my HO

500 Nitro



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new_guy
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37611 - 16/09/05 01:52 PM

In reply to:

I found this on the web:

"The 375 H&H should have never been chambered in any double rifles, it runs to [sic] hot at 50 to 60,000 PSI and will shoot any double loose in a short time...all doubles should have a rim...."

Do you agree with this?


Aaron




Do a quick experiment for yourself... look at the caliber offerings from EVERY major (and historic) double rifle maker on the planet and list the ones here that don't offer the 375H&H as a chambering.

I'll save you some time and tell you that there aren't any... Now if the 375 should NOT have ever been chambered in a DR, why do you suppose that EVERY major mfg. of DR's chambers one?

In short, who do you think knows more about DR's: the person that wrote the quote or the makers that build them?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #37617 - 16/09/05 02:24 PM

In reply to:

I had a great evening moose hunt last night. A friend and I sat over a relatively open marsh. Five moose showed, but all were cows.

The highlight of the evening was coming out, when we jumped a black bear at close range. Could have used a double then. :-)

It was too good.





You may find the moose might well be huntable with a double as well, especially if it can be scoped.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NE450No2
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: NitroX]
      #37620 - 16/09/05 03:24 PM

Nitro X is correct. A scoped 9,3x74R double is perfect for moose. And all game under buffalo on the planet, usually shot under 250 yards.

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srose
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: xyzzycoder]
      #38460 - 30/09/05 06:07 AM

Aaron,

If you can find a Siace 45-70 double they are great guns. I have one and its shoots really well with a 405 gr bullet at about 1650 fps. This double is well made and very pretty.It has a Euro style stock with way too high at the comb but my belt sander took care of that. When I bought mine about a year ago the price was $5200. I my opinion you won't find a better fun gun for that kind of money.
Merkels are also nice guns and the 9.3X74R is a good caliber.

Sam


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500Nitro
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Re: First Double Rifle - Where do I start? [Re: srose]
      #38461 - 30/09/05 06:22 AM

srose,

Could you tell me more about the Siace DR's.
Who makes / made them,

Aren't they made in Italy ?

Had a quick look through my usual research places
but couldn't find much on them.

I see a couple of shotguns on gunsamerica.

500 Nitro


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