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lancaster
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FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis.
      #373914 - 07/02/23 08:07 AM

I see this, the guy had thought a lot about this classic cases of mailfunction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv8cByaVyNQ

worth to look this 34 minutes.
in 2023 is good to remember why and how this new age of wonder nine plastic pistols started once. althoug my heart is beating for hand fitted and rust blued pre great war pistols I understand the worth of the glock. I would say now in retrospective the 1986 miami shooting had maybe the biggest impact on handguns since WW 2.
hard to imagine now that police officers in the united states in 1986 were still carry revolver. yes, there were also 9 mm pistols then, he talk about this, but who realy wants to have a revolver when he could get a pistol with some magazins today. that the officers dont realy hit what they were shooting, well, thats another problem.

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85lc
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: lancaster]
      #373919 - 07/02/23 11:36 AM

A good article about the shootout is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: 85lc]
      #373922 - 07/02/23 01:07 PM

The local SA police some time ago, 1990s or 2000s had a shooting incident in a park or oval in a suburb near my city house, KMs away though.

The report in the media from memory mentioned from say 17 to the 30s of cartridges being fired at the offender I believe who was standing completely in the open and not at great range. Only one to three rounds actually hit the offender. I do not believe any fired shots were of a suppressive nature.

Obviously a great lack of marksmanship was indicated by the article. I believe after that incident, it was used as an excuse to rearm the police with a new handgun.

I'm not sure what the service handgun is today? A Glock?

It used to be some crappy .380 ACP semiauto pistol and then a .357 revolver. One or both of these during the above incident.

Marksmanship is not a highly desired skill per the police leadership. Collecting fines and taxation seems to be a priority. I used to shoot at an indoor club range and some regular members were offduty police officers. Those officers obviously had a different standard to the average street copper.

IMO if you're carrying a handgun on your hip in a holster, and are said to be "protecting the public", you should be proficient in its use and of adequate marksmanship.

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DarylS
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: NitroX]
      #373929 - 07/02/23 01:31 PM

I agree, but even back in the 1970's, some RCMP members had to be ordered to go to qualification for the ability to carry. If they did not pass, it was desk duty only. Crossed Revolvers was 235 out of 300. A perfect 300 was a crown over the crossed revolvers.
I could never understand the reluctance to shoot, it was an opportunity to shoot free ammo.
In 94 I think it was, the corporal, now passed on, who was running those matches, Len Grennell (friend ever since) allowed me to use my model 29 for a 'go' on the course of fire, after I had passed with the service revolver. I shot a crown with it, just as I had with my service revolver. I was not given the crown as there were 2 keyholes on my target - plain clothes member beside me shooting his snub nose model 60 - double action only. Out of 50 rounds, he only had about 30 hits scattered all over his target. My own target was a blowout in the central 9/10 rings which scored 5 pts., but those 2 misses were scored against me. Len thought it was funny I had "help". I wasn't amused. I'd gotten over it by 1989 for the WPFGames where I shot on the RCMP team as a retired member. We got the gold in the 200 yard prone rifle, metallic sight match, 30 rounds. Set a new record not beaten yet. Some cops could shoot.

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Rule303
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: lancaster]
      #373941 - 07/02/23 03:52 PM

I'll have to have a look at this one. Have seen several reviews of the incident. One thing that came out of this and a shooting in New York was the psych component of those involved in shooting a human.

1) is the unwillingness of a human to take the life of another. Affects the good guys way worse than the bad guys. Several reasons for this, I won't go into at the moment as I am posting on the internet not writing an essay.

2) the stress to shoot before been shot, also, results in most shots being wild. This side of things is being addressed more and more. Not sure how this will continue with a lot of new police, as they don't like being put under the kind of stress that attempts to emulate-to a small degree - real life stresses.

3) They shoot once a year and need to do way more than this to introduce muscle memory on the firing sequence, so they shoot with a steadier trigger pull instead of a jerk.

A lot was learned by the worldwide policing community from this incident, bad guys reactions and why they have the ability to absorb many shots. Most police that have military combat training have/develop these abilities.

Most police forces are not willing to spend the time and money to over come most of this. Some do have range time when any that are interested can turn up for practice and guidance. How many make use of this I have no idea but guess it would be minimal.

Edited by Rule303 (07/02/23 03:55 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: Rule303]
      #373944 - 07/02/23 04:27 PM

Quote:



2) the stress to shoot before been shot, also, results in most shots being wild. This side of things is being addressed more and more. Not sure how this will continue with a lot of new police, as they don't like being put under the kind of stress that attempts to emulate-to a small degree - real life stresses.

3) They shoot once a year and need to do way more than this to introduce muscle memory on the firing sequence, so they shoot with a steadier trigger pull instead of a jerk.




While not the same stress as bullets whizzing past your head, or killing a person (lawfully), a fair amount on practice would alleviate some of these issues.

And not shooting at some circular target 7 m away ...

Really if a copmis shooting their service weapon only once a year, they should be treated as British cops and not be armed with a firearm.

No wonder so many police are frightened of civilians having firearms. They must be scared to shoot their own firearm.

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Rule303
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: lancaster]
      #373945 - 07/02/23 04:50 PM

Got a break from the house work and watched the video.

Well thought out and well presented I felt. He makes some very valid points. The main one was marksmanship. When under pressure marksmanship goes out the door unless a person does some serious training to induce the muscle memory and psych capacity/memory to do this. Main reason the militaries of the world do this.

I had forgotten about the Newark -spelling -shooting and lessons learnt from that. Erroneously it seems. But to my way of thinking the outcomes were positive. I.E. speed loaders, speed strips, couple of rounds in and index the cylinder, keep eyes on threat while reloading.

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lancaster
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: Rule303]
      #373946 - 07/02/23 09:46 PM

what I found most interesting were his words about lack of preparation in 30:00 about the marksman pistol shooter who lost his glasses in the firefight because he don't spend some cents on a strap.such things did only happen if you are in fact an armchair marksman.

I wonder how the gunhistory would have be gone without the miami shooting.
10mm auto, 40 S&W, plastik pistols with 30 rounds magazine - it all goes done to this case.

I thing what he is not speaking about is the fact, iirc this, that one or both offenders were under the influence of drugs what make them more dangerous and also indolent ( zombi behaviour). correct me if this was not right.

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85lc
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: lancaster]
      #373947 - 08/02/23 02:21 AM

From what I remember from reading articles when this happened and also reading the fairly lenthy Wikipedia article, the agents appeared to be poorly trained for this type situation and that the bullets used were old fashion round nose bullets that didn't do as much damage as a modern bullet would do.

The article that I read stated "Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths."

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Rule303
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: 85lc]
      #373956 - 08/02/23 07:38 AM

Quote:

From what I remember from reading articles when this happened and also reading the fairly lenthy Wikipedia article, the agents appeared to be poorly trained for this type of situation and that the bullets used were old fashion round nose bullets that didn't do as much damage as a modern bullet would do.

The article that I read stated "Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths."



From what I have read this is correct. Poorly trained and the old style ammo did not help.

Their ability to fight through was in fact mental preparedness to take hits. The belief that a hit does not mean you are dead and can still fight on. One was ex-military (Army I think).ost people are taught, by one means or another, that if shot you will die so give up the will to live when shot. The military train people to know that if shot keep fighting or you will die. Comes back to the psych side of things.

The plastic fantastic side arms came about because of the Munich Olympics. Mainly the need for a side arm without a conventional safety.

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Rule303
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: NitroX]
      #373958 - 08/02/23 07:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:



2) the stress to shoot before been shot, also, results in most shots being wild. This side of things is being addressed more and more. Not sure how this will continue with a lot of new police, as they don't like being put under the kind of stress that attempts to emulate-to a small degree - real life stresses.

3) They shoot once a year and need to do way more than this to introduce muscle memory on the firing sequence, so they shoot with a steadier trigger pull instead of a jerk.




While not the same stress as bullets whizzing past your head, or killing a person (lawfully), a fair amount on practice would alleviate some of these issues.

And not shooting at some circular target 7 m away ...

Really if a copmis shooting their service weapon only once a year, they should be treated as British cops and not be armed with a firearm.

No wonder so many police are frightened of civilians having firearms. They must be scared to shoot their own firearm.



Practice works if you are practicing the correct thing/method.

Most police in Australia will never have to draw their firearm in their time in the job, let alone use it. This maybe one of the reasons their commissioners do not mandate more training, apart from the cost. Don't get me wrong I believe they should have more compulsory range time than once a year.

Not sure if what Aussie police forces use a circular target. I thought most used a human shaped target.

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DarylS
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: Rule303]
      #373959 - 08/02/23 07:55 AM

Interesting, the psychology of it 'taking' hits. Back when I young man, working in a gun shop, had an Indian chap looking at a Welby Scott .38. Apparently, permits could be obtained in India for possession or carry. Indians in Vancouver would buy them, then mail them to their relatives in India.
Anyway, the chap said "oh is vetty good gun". I told him "if someone shot me with one of those POShit I'd break his F---ing neck." LOL - I guess it was a mind set. I then pointed to a model 29 with 8 3/8" bl.saying "that's a handgun" and he exclaimed, "oh is vetty BEEG gun".

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Daryl


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Rule303
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: DarylS]
      #373962 - 08/02/23 09:53 AM

The psychology side of things is interesting to me. Many moons ago a bloke at one of the reptile farms up near Cairns explained the correct way to treat snake bite, something the medical world started to recommend several years later. Any how he asked if anybody knew one of the reasons people died from snake bite in Australia. Many people put forward their beliefs. He said it was due to conditioning by parents. As kids we were told if we got bitten by a snake we would die. Apparently research showed that there were people bitten by deadly snakes who died but should not have. Also the fear of dying causes the heart to pump faster and muscles to twitch. He recommended that as parents we should be telling our kids that if you get bitten by a snake you can become very sick.

I think the psych side of things can play a big part in how we react under stress.

Daryl I think that you may well have the same sort of psych out look that the two bad guys in that FBI shoot out and a few police officers that survive been shot and continuing the fight had.

Edited by Rule303 (08/02/23 09:54 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: Rule303]
      #373971 - 08/02/23 02:46 PM

Quote:


And not shooting at some circular target 7 m away ...

Not sure if what Aussie police forces use a circular target. I thought most used a human shaped target.



Yeah nah ... I think they use human shaped as well.

It's all us PC target shooting fools who use silly circular targets.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: Rule303]
      #373972 - 08/02/23 03:10 PM

Quote:



I think the psych side of things can play a big part in how we react under stress.




If one can believe all these fictional movies and tv series about "seals" and other SF, and some true life accounts, some guys could continue with horrible wounds.

Is it adrenaline? Is it a trained mindset of continuing no matter what? Stubbornness? Or through a selection process certain attributes of some people progress while others are rejected?

I read that SF guys return to a non excited state quicker, brood pressure, heart rate etc. Adrenaline flow retreats quicker. True or not, I don't know.

In history berserker warriors reportedly took massive wounds yet fought hard. Filled with Odin's rage and fury. Afterwards they were weak and limp and easily killed. On their way to Valhalla.

Animals display similar behaviour. Some buffalo die quickly. Others fight on. With similar wounds. People have speculated as to why. The heart or lungs filled with blood at the time, or not?

Regarding the snake bite comments. No doubt about it. If people when wounded give up they might not be saved. If the person fights willfully for life they might. I hope I never need to find out about snake bite. I fear getting bitten KMs away from the house or vehicle. Having to walk a long distance with only a belt and some clothes to use as a compression bandage, tourniquet. How does one control one's heart rate walking 2 kms? A good reason to carry a mobile phone when out and about if it can get a signal.

Rage, adrenalin, stubbornness, mindset all can play a part. No doubt about it in my in my opinion.

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DoubleD
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: NitroX]
      #373991 - 09/02/23 01:08 AM

There is a saying about history. If it is forgotten, it is bound to be learned again.

The Miami Dade shooting is history and is being forgot...

But.


The trend these days is for modern police to have a long gun available.

I can recall one the first orders of a newly elected Sheriff back in the 80's. Get those rifles out of our patrol cars. If we need them we will go home and get them.

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DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (09/02/23 01:12 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: DoubleD]
      #373992 - 09/02/23 04:19 AM

Police, Conservation Officers and Sheriffs here use a green human target. They no longer use the B27's I was taught on.
Apparently, these re available in green and blue as well.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0069/2581/1785/products/B-27-Black_LG_500x.png?v=1576875939

Anyone trained on the black ones, should be good at shooting ISIS terrorists. I'm told this is a racist target and this is why the other colours. I've never drawn that connection in the past. We also used this target for my 20 years in corrections & not even once, did we have a black man in custody.

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lancaster
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: 85lc]
      #373995 - 09/02/23 05:39 AM

Quote:


The article that I read stated "Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths."



thanks, then I have mix up this with another case

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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lancaster
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: DarylS]
      #373996 - 09/02/23 05:43 AM

Quote:

Police, Conservation Officers and Sheriffs here use a green human target. They no longer use the B27's I was taught on.
Apparently, these re available in green and blue as well.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0069/2581/1785/products/B-27-Black_LG_500x.png?v=1576875939

Anyone trained on the black ones, should be good at shooting ISIS terrorists. I'm told this is a racist target and this is why the other colours. I've never drawn that connection in the past. We also used this target for my 20 years in corrections & not even once, did we have a black man in custody.



daryl, this are the current pc targets







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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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DarylS
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: lancaster]
      #373999 - 09/02/23 08:04 AM

I use black and white targets - non-discriminatory.


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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: DarylS]
      #374012 - 09/02/23 11:53 PM

ok, two black rings, two white rings
looks good to me

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Checkman
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: lancaster]
      #376170 - 21/04/23 11:44 AM

I recommend "FBI Miami Firefight: Five Minutes that Changed the Bureau" by Edmundo and Elizabeth Mireles. Ed Mireles was the FBI agent who ended the fight by shooting both the suspects with a 12-gauge Remington 870 shotgun and his Smith & Wesson revolver - after having been shot twice. It breaks the gunfight down and is an interesting look into what one might experience if one is ever in a gunfight. Particularly a gunfight where everyone is shooting within just a few feet of each other. It will also show what is involved in the recovery process, after having had bullets put into one's body.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0999510304/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Edited by Checkman (21/04/23 11:46 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: FBI 1986 Miami Dade Shooting: An Analysis. [Re: Checkman]
      #376172 - 21/04/23 03:29 PM

allways thought it happen in a more sterile area, something like an industrial park but it was in the backyard



















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