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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings?
#373085 - 13/01/23 05:21 AM

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this but I'm eyeing an antique blunderbuss and I can't seem to see any proof marks anywhere on the gun.

I'm still very new to antique guns but every listing I've seen has some sort of markings somewhere on the gun. My concern is this isn't a genuine antique but some sort of replica perhaps.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373087 - 13/01/23 06:31 AM

Ask the seller to pull the metal from the wood and provide detailed images of the underside of the barrel and the inside of the lock plate

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: tinker]
#373088 - 13/01/23 06:34 AM

Quote:

Ask the seller to pull the metal from the wood and provide detailed images of the underside of the barrel and the inside of the lock plate

Thank you Tinker! I shall message the seller asking for those details.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27071
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373090 - 13/01/23 06:41 AM

Interesting. It is not a commercial replica. It looks the part of an English gun, but no marks on the lock, which is strange as even the replica round faced musket locks have Grice or other marks as in a crown on them. The barrel, if English, should have proof marks just up from the breech and on the left side of the barrel.(opposite the cock) They could be under the barrel, but that is not normal. On the side, above the wood is where they should be.
If it is "newly" made, it is a good job of antiquing. There are gun makers who are VERY good at this.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: DarylS]
#373096 - 13/01/23 06:56 AM

Always great hearing from you Daryl.

I agree that it's strange that there are no markings anywhere. The seller has two similar guns for sale and they look almost identical save for the full stock on the one I'm interested in.

The other has markings on it, stamped 1811 along with the picture of what appears a dancing man.

Edited by animalwithin (13/01/23 06:56 AM)

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27071
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373101 - 13/01/23 08:28 AM

Now that one is just plain weird.
Also, on the first one, the wearing at the wedding band is also strange, but on military guns, caused by rubbing with the steel rod to keep the barrels shiny. Very strange and maybe filing & polishing to remove rust?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: DarylS]
#373102 - 13/01/23 09:19 AM

Quote:

Now that one is just plain weird.
Also, on the first one, the wearing at the wedding band is also strange, but on military guns, caused by rubbing with the steel rod to keep the barrels shiny. Very strange and maybe filing & polishing to remove rust?

As someone who is unfamiliar with the specific parts of these guns, where is the wedding band?

It's possible these two were from the same manufacturer but the markings on the first one have since rubbed off. I think they looked almost identical save for the difference in length of stock.

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 735
Loc: West UK

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373103 - 13/01/23 10:58 AM

It looks particularly dodgy to me although that era is not my area of expertise

If you post it on British Militaria Forums you will get very good opinions

If you wish I will do it for you

TH

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Longknife
.333 member

Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: TH44]
#373117 - 14/01/23 02:49 AM

I'm going to go way out am a limb here and say India. The strangest thing about both of these guns is that there are pins holding the butt plate and t-guard on, even the sling swivels are pinned, in not so nice of a manner. Also those parts appear to be hand made and not of very good quality or of any design I would expect to see on an English piece. There are heavy file marks on all the parts, the metal work is pretty crude, no English or European 'smith would produce a crude piece like these. And then there is the rampant lion, the mark of the East India company. These locks may be of English manufacture, but the rest was made in India....I think....LK

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Longknife

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Longknife
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Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: Longknife]
#373119 - 14/01/23 03:24 AM

The "wedding band" is the band that separates the round/octagon section of the barrel and looks like a wedding band. I also believe the barrels were made in India, as no proof marks on first one and unidentifiable marks on the second, to mimic english proof marks. There were no proof houses in India. The barrels look crude, especially the second one.These were made and sold all the way up until the 20 century for the tourist trade. LK

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Longknife

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DarylS
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Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: Longknife]
#373121 - 14/01/23 05:27 AM

I was wondering the same, Ed, that they are perhaps "Indian" guns. They aren't of new mfg'r as that bunch of guns all have proof marks, copied from originals.
Can't tell in the pictures. Are there vents in the side of the barrel, under the frizzen?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: DarylS]
#373123 - 14/01/23 06:24 AM

Thank you all for the wealth of information! The second gun is listed as one of East India Company but the first is listed as an English gun so I'm assuming the seller just isn't savvy to the history as you all are here.

Daryl, I don't see any vents anywhere.

I asked the seller for the details that tinker provided above and I never got an answer so perhaps it's best to pass on this one.

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DarylS
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Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373124 - 14/01/23 08:43 AM

The vent is the hole in the side of the barrel, where the flash of powder from the pan ignites the charge inside the barrel. The heat & burning of the flash, sets off the barrel's charge.
On these old guns, the vent or hole in the side of the barrel is usually 1/8" in diameter.
Appears the pictures, with pan closed on the one above and the second gun it's only partially open, so no picture at an angle where the vent can be seen.
The newly made Indian guns, do not have vents, so are incapable of being fired, therefore they are not firearms as per shipping, mailing regulations.
I realize in the States, that black powder firearms are not firearms at all.
Same here with flint locks, as far a possession licensing goes.
Someone here who has a firearms ban, can own and shoot flintlock guns, cap locks, no.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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animalwithin
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Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: DarylS]
#373136 - 15/01/23 06:43 AM

This is good to know. I need to get educated on these old guns before I go buying any

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Longknife
.333 member

Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373159 - 16/01/23 12:18 AM

Animal, A decent English BB will run around $2500. Of course, condition is important, as is the maker. English guns usually have a name on the lock and a location on the barrel along with proof marks. Here is my little collection.

Edited by Longknife (16/01/23 12:45 AM)

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Longknife
.333 member

Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: Longknife]
#373160 - 16/01/23 12:47 AM

--------------------
Longknife

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DarylS
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Posts: 27071
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: Longknife]
#373163 - 16/01/23 06:08 AM

You can see the vent in this flinter's picture. It is the little hole in the side of the barrel, just above the lock's upper surface.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2438
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373220 - 17/01/23 03:18 AM

Quote:

.

The dancing lion is the Mark of the East India Company.

Is it real, maybe, maybe not. If you post it here you might find and answer,

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/guns-of-the-east-india-company-f38/

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: DarylS]
#373221 - 17/01/23 03:31 AM

This is a great example of how a sporting flint rifles should look

Quote:

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: tinker]
#373235 - 17/01/23 03:16 PM

Longknife, your pictures aren't popping up. Would love to see your collection of antiquities. I've been keeping an eye on some auctions featuring British flintlocks and have seen many go for quite a bit of $$$.

Daryl, thank you for the clarification on that. What a beautiful rifle!

DoubleD, I'm going to post this on the forum you linked and see what kind of responses I get.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27071
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373243 - 18/01/23 05:11 AM

The rifle pictured (The Woods Runner) is the newest kit developed and made by Jim and Katherine Kibler at https://kiblerslongrifles.com/.
This particular "kit" is so precisely made on CNC equipment it is basically an assemble, then take apart and finish arrangement with barely any, most often no wood removal. They are shipping out up to 35 kits per week right now.
Thought I'd give them a plug here, wonderful people.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
.333 member

Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373306 - 20/01/23 04:29 AM

Most English Blunderbusses will have the makers name on the lock and the location on the barrel.

1) English, Lock J Jackson, Barrel Cranbrook. 4 bore, or 1 inch.

2) Irish, Lock Parkinson, Barrel Dublin. 11 bore or .750

3) Irish, Lock Elton, Barrel Monaghan. 11 bore, or ,750

4) French, all marking were worn off or "cleaned off during restoration but style
definitely tells me this is a French gun. 14 bore. or .690 (Standard French military bore size)

--------------------
Longknife

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27071
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: Longknife]
#373308 - 20/01/23 04:32 AM

Nice collection!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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animalwithin
.275 member

Reged: 31/01/20
Posts: 71
Loc: California, United States

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: DarylS]
#373436 - 23/01/23 02:44 PM

A very beautiful collection indeed!

Daryl, thank you for the link to the Kibler rifles. You have most certainly provided me another avenue to spend money

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27071
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Antique blunderbuss with no proof markings? [Re: animalwithin]
#373439 - 23/01/23 04:34 PM

Excellent. The Woodsrunner model is practically a put it together, take it apart and finish the wood, finish the metal the way you want and reassemble. No wood needs to be removed. All parts are CNC fitted, as far as I know.
The other 2 models require some minor amount of skill. Jim K. has made a number of videos on the work required to make his kits. They are the best "kits" on the market, but only the 3 models offered, so far. There is talk of perhaps a Hawken and/or a single shot smoothbore. The Hawken would be a cap lock, while the smoothy and the rest of the kits are flinters.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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