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MauserRifle
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Which DR cartridge for YOU!
      #37306 - 13/09/05 10:43 AM

I would like to hear the opinion of the distinguished members of this forum concerning the PROS/CONS of the following calibers in a Double Rifle :

450 3 1/4" N.E.

450 NO 2 N.E. (3 1/2")

470 N.E.

The comparision should include the following:

1. Knock down & stopping power for DG.

2. Usefulness as an all purpose rifle/cartridge.

3. AVAILABILITY OF FACTORY AMMO.

4. Recoil.

5. Which caliber would you chose?





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475Guy
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37310 - 13/09/05 11:07 AM

That's easy, the 470 NE. Ease of obtaining brass--it's a helluva easier than trying to get any 450 NE brass of any flavor. Ease of getting bullets nowadays. Granted the 450 NE's can use 458 bullets but if you don't have brass because of limited availability, then you just have a really fancy and expensive club. I've known of a couple of guys who had to replace their brass and couldn't get any in quantity (100) or more. A lot of 450 NE brass is advertised out there but if you hit at the wrong time, you have to wait a year or two for the next run. Besides all that, the 450's are really expensive. I've gotten 470 NE brass whenever I get the chance and will hoard them.

--------------------
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them in the Halls of Valhalla,
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mickey
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37316 - 13/09/05 12:40 PM

I would like to hear the opinion of the distinguished members of this forum concerning the PROS/CONS of the following calibers in a Double Rifle :

450 3 1/4" N.E.

450 NO 2 N.E. (3 1/2")

470 N.E.

The comparision should include the following:

1. Knock down & stopping power for DG.

All are equal.

2. Usefulness as an all purpose rifle/cartridge.

All are equal as a cartridge but the 470 is easier to get ammo for, if you can afford it. The 450 3 1/2 is a lower pressure cartridge but that is probably not much of an advantage anymore.

3. AVAILABILITY OF FACTORY AMMO.

470 is much easirer as Fed. loads it. The others are loaded by WR and Kynoch and are even more expensive, if you can believe that is possible.

4. Recoil.

Equal.


5. Which caliber would you chose?

450 3 1/4 as it comes, if you by a quality rifle, in a slimmer and handier size action. The other two are wider and heavier actions. If you buy one of the entry level guns the actions are all the same so it doesn't matter.

I've always liked the 465 best of all but don't know why I guess it is half way between the 450 and the 470..


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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Peterb
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37322 - 13/09/05 01:41 PM

470

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luv2safari
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: Peterb]
      #37324 - 13/09/05 02:06 PM

470 now rules the world of dangerous game DRs, and for good reason. One can buy ammo easily and with only a small second mortgage.

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500grains
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: luv2safari]
      #37328 - 13/09/05 02:21 PM

This is a really easy question. Kind of like would you rather have a 30 Newton, a 30-06 or a 280 Ross. Pretty easy choice.

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NE450No2
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500grains]
      #37330 - 13/09/05 02:55 PM

In todays world the 470 is the way to go.
However I would not trade my 450 No2 for an identical rifle in 470. The 450 No2 is one of the easiest Nitro cases to load for. Its shape is perfect, it has a thick strong rim. Also I like the .458 Bore and the bullets avaialable.
As far as effectiveness on game I do not think there is any difference in the Nitro Expresses from the 450 through the 475's.

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MauserRifle
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: NE450No2]
      #37333 - 13/09/05 04:21 PM

mickey and NE450No2

As I expected, the 470 N.E. would be the caliber of choice especially due to the availability of factory ammo. I was though little surprised in the lack of favorable response for the 450 3 1/4" N.E. and 450 No 2 (3 1/2") as it seems to me that there is a small resurgence of interest in these calibers, as well as many of the other big bore double rifle calibers.

I have also noticed that calibers other than 470 N.E. seem to be bringing high dollar prices for some reason, be it that the demand for DR's is greater and/or their are fewer of the other calibers available.

I am also wondering if maybe because of better bullet design, the calibers below 470 N.E. are becoming more popular enabling the hunter to carry a slightly trimmer DR with slightly less recoil.

These are some of my thoughts and all other thoughts and opinions are welcome!





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mickey
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37334 - 13/09/05 04:40 PM

Well there's no doubt a proper sized 450 3 1/4 action is trimmer and a bit lighter than a 470. I don't think that you could tell the difference in recoil though. They are all so close in power as to not matter which you take hunting. If you think you are going to find 470 ammunition in Zambia or Tanzania you are really in the dark. That's why it doesn't matter what cartridge you take.

I think some people want something different than the herd so they choose a less popular caliber. Also a lot of people buying Doubles now don't really have a clue as to any of the calibers or makers so they buy what appears to be popular.

I would be happy with any of the 45-47 calibers if it was the right rifle.

Bullet design has nothing to do with it. The Kynoch style has been with us for 100 years and has worked grand. Some people leap on any new design because they just have to screw with everything or they aren't happy.

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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rgp
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37341 - 13/09/05 06:39 PM

I think I'm a member, but I'm not distinguished or anything like that. I don't have my double rifle yet but after asking double rifle owners a million questions, I've come to the conclusion that the .470 is the best chambering to get and if you want anything else, the only other one to really consider is a .450/400 3" NE.

Personally from a standpoint of actual use I'd prefer the .450/400 3", but I think I'm getting a .470, because:

1) the .470 is the only double rifle cartridge loaded by a major ammunition manufacturer;
2) multiple sources of brass;
3) ability to use commonly available .475 Linebaugh bullets for reduced loads (if you're in the USA);
4) virtually all rifle bullets in the appropriate diameter are designed specifically for a .470 NE.
5) as far as i can tell. the .470 NE cartridge in actual use is at least five times as popular as any other double rifle cartridge...why I don't know, but because of that, brass is far less likely to be discontinued.
6) Butch Searcy will build a .470 with a spare set of 12 gauge shottie barrels

Richard

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37349 - 13/09/05 11:59 PM

The difference between the cartridges set out in the question posed IMO may be academic as it is unlikely there is a cent's worth of performance differnece between any of them.

The real question here ifeel, is which is logistically the most readily available? Of course in the US as in the U.K ammo is avaiable from factory sources or Custom loaders, this is not necessarily so in most African countries, even .470 can be difficult to source in Africa, but some of the other claibres may prove even more difficult to locate. With the reanissance undergone in recent times with the .470, that, more than performance alone, may well be the raison d etre for selecting it.

Taylor noted over 40 years ago that there was little difference between any of the .450 - .475 class of rifles and that to gain significant advantage, .500 was the next power step up.

Ignoring the wild-cat magazine cartridges that have been spawned since the 1950's Taylor's comments IMHO hold good to this day, if you can be sure of a ready supply of ammo the world over for your chosen calibre then there is no reason to change.

Personally, I would follow the crowd and go down the .470 route, that said I didn't follow my own advice and went for a .600 instead

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tinker
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: mickey]
      #37354 - 14/09/05 12:45 AM

Me, distinguished... -here-...?

Naaahh!


But I do have a bottleneck .450 double rifle, it's a BPE gun though -- and I'm using 450no2 Nitro brass in it.

From what I've read about the 450no2 3-1/2" Nitro Express and the guns set up to run that round, it would definitely be the choice for me.

The reason for that is that I've heard of numerous guns chambered in that round that did amazingly well *Loaded Down* to run .458 bullets designed for the 45-70
Being able to use your nice, expensive, goregeous DG double rifle on light skinned game here in North America is a good thing. I've seen the 'nitro for black' reduced load specs from the member of this list who's using that chambering as his handle here, his notes indicate that they all hit to regulation in his gun. I've heard of other 450no2NE rifles that do the same kind of thing with reduced loads and light bullets. I think Grame Wright noted something to that effect on this particular 3-1/2" bottleneck.

The Nitro for Black loads are easy on the shoulder and they're easy on the brass. The guns should be tough enough where it just isn't an issue for them, but you might want to consier that as well while keeping in practice with your DG rifle. Full house nitro loads are also more expensive to shoot, from the standpoint of pricey bullets, bigger powder charges, -and- stress on your five buck apice brass cases.


Getting brass doesn't seem to be that big an issue, paying for it is another issue altogether. Any way you cut it, unless it's on some kind of clearance sale it's gonna run you nearly a hundred bucks a box of twenty.


I haven't heard of the .470 or the 3-1/4" .450 doing so well with anything but the regulation load.
And for what it's worth, if I were shopping for a full nitro DG gun (which I'm not but I'm always looking anyway) I'd want to know for double damn sure how well it shot with whatever it was shooting. At the price of a full nitro DG gun, the price of brass and dies wouldn't necessarily be so much of an issue as long as it were available and wasn't stupid expensive.
My money would be with a particular specimen that did well with more than one load, fit me well, looked right for my taste, and I could afford.
A Scottish snap action 450no2NE non ejector with damascus barrels, versatile regulation, and which fit well would have me looking pretty seriously into an equity loan...



--Tinker





--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: tinker]
      #37374 - 14/09/05 03:45 AM


tinker,

A lot of doubles will regulate with lighter loads and lighter bullets.

One's I can think of are:-

9.3 x 74R

375's H&H and Flanged Magnum - I haven't / didn't try with my 375 2 1/2"

The various 450's - I have tried 500/450, Rigby 450 3 1/4" and obviously others have tried
450 No 2.

450/400 of all persuasions will do it

500 Nitro's will all do it.


500 Nitro

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MauserRifle
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: mickey]
      #37390 - 14/09/05 05:23 AM

mickey

Concerning the 450 3 1/4 action, I believe somewhere either you or another menber stated that most of the entry level or lower grade DR's were built on the same size action as the 470 and other bigger calibers instead of slimer actions more approprate to caliber? Assuming this, wouldn't these rifles have less recoil?

I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be one when it comes to DR's. As you have stated, there are many people who know very little about DR's, but have a definate interset in purchasing one and have no idea of where to start looking and what to look for in making a selection. There are far too many brands and grades to consider when starting a search to purchase a DR. As I have stated, I also have a limited knowledge of DR's. Because of this limited knowledge of DR's, I have used the theory that you get what you pay for, stick to the Holland & Holland, Rigby and other very expensive Doubles. But, I do believe that there are DR's out there that are considerably less expensive than the above, that are of good quality and will serve one as well as the very expensive DR's, they just are not as fancy andone is not paying a premiun for the name. I could be wrong, but if this is true, I believe this forum is the place to inform future buyers.

A few days ago you started a topic on WHO IS THE BEST BUILDERS OF DR'S TODAY. I made a post on that topic (third page) asking if 3,4,of 5 of the most knowledgeable members coujld come up with a list of DR's in three time peeriods. Please refer back to that post. I believe this would be very beneficial to many members of this forum.

Last night I searched the internet briefely for DR's and on one site came up with the following makers :
Greifelt & Co.
Continental Arms
Merkel Safari
Merkel 140-A
Austrian Guild
Victor Sarasquetta
R B Rodda

These were all for sale on one site. The prices ranged from US $7599.00 to $10,900.00. The rifles seemed to be virtually about the same as to features. There are places on this forum to find DR builders of past and present, but there is no break down as to the quality and features of these rifles. Maybe now is the time to create an area with descriptions and the quality of the various DR's that are for sale. As we both know, not everyone can afford to spend $150,000.00 to $180,000.00 for a Holland & Holland Best Quality DR. I would assume that some of the lesser expensive DR's, even some of the above are of a quality that would be suitable for those looking for a DR and not having a fortune to spend.

These are my thoughts!




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Mauser Rifle

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500Nitro
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37402 - 14/09/05 06:24 AM


MauserRifle

I know you post was directed at Mickey but I'd like to add a couple
of things.

Firstly, early on alot of NItro Doubles were built
on bigger actions - I have a 450/400 that is big enough
to take a 500 Nitro.

450 3 1/4" were generally thinner as it is a traight case.

In regards to
As we both know, not everyone can afford to spend $150,000.00 to $180,000.00 for a Holland & Holland
Best Quality DR. I would assume that some of the lesser expensive DR's, even some of the above are
of a quality that would be suitable for those looking for a DR and not having a fortune to spend."

2nd hand Holland's do not cost $150,000.00 to $180,000.00 unless they are made of gold.

You can buy a H&H in 375 2 1/2" for UNDER $US30,000 and a larger calibre from
US$30000 and upwards depending on condition, action, etc etc.

Re learning about DR's - Start BUYING books and reading EVERYTHING you can get
your hands on and it will all start to fall into place. Also, get a mentor who knows what's what
to point you in the right direction. Ray Atkinson and others on this forum are
good people with lots of experience - owning, shooting and hunting with DR's

Have a look at www.gunsamerica.com and just look and read he descriptions.
You will learn heaps.

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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tinker
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37403 - 14/09/05 06:26 AM

500N-

Thanks for that note.
Looks like my choice would still be 450no2 NE





--Tinker

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37407 - 14/09/05 06:56 AM

MauserRifle,

In my opinion (and it is just that), the best choice for an entry level double rifle is the Merkel 140-2.

If you are looking for a double in a dangerous game caliber, as your post suggests, you can find a Merkel on the used market in the realm of $7,000. For that you will get a well made, dependable, accurate rifle. Merkel has been making double rifles since the late 1800's, and they know what they are doing. It will last your lifetime and several others.

Don't get the model 140-2.1. You will pay an extra $1,000 for cheezy engraving. Remember, this is an entry level, working rifle.

I have a Model 140-2 in .500 Nitro, and I really like it. I have shot it hundreds of times. This is not the only double rifle I have. I'm a collector, but also a shooter.

That's my advice, for what it's worth ($0.02). You might even consider .500 Nitro. It is really a great caliber and fun to shoot. I can load for it as easily and cheaply as for a .470 Nitro.

Good luck in your choice,
Curl

P.S.

I ain't exactly distinguished; more nearly extinguished!

Curl

P.P.S.

Here's a link to the website:

Merkel 140-2


Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: CptCurl]
      #37410 - 14/09/05 07:56 AM

CptCurl.

Well said.

Like you, I am a collector but also a shooter and even though I
have English DR, I also have 2 Merkels (470/375H&H)
and what you pay for them for what you get is good value for money.

The problem I see is the longer people wait the higher the price goes
OR everyone just keeps waiting for a "bargain".

500 Nitro

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MauserRifle
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37411 - 14/09/05 08:09 AM

500Nitro

Thank you for your reply. All information is helpful to everyone concerned.

I personally don't believe that reading alone is the answer to knowning all. There are books on every topic in the world, but I am throughly convinced that reading alone will not enable one to know all that is needed concerning a topic. This can be exampled by most any subject, repairing a car engine, driving, baking, HUNTING. One can read all the books in the world and still not know what they are doing!

As for a mentor, that is what I thought I was suggesting. Where else can one find so many knowledgeable people concerning DR's than on this forum? I am sure that anyone interseted in puchasing a DR has read about them and has a basic knowledge of DR's. That is why I suggested that the distingished and knowledgeable members of NITRO EXPRESS FORUM create a listing of all the different makes of DR's available, listing there good and weak points along with which makes are the best buy for the money. Can you tell me of a better place than this forum for such a subject and information?

Next, I do not wish to start a debate, but there are Holland & Holland DR's listed at US $150,000.00 and more. At this moment the Holland & Holland New york firm has a H & H Royal .500/465 for $170,600.00. I personally know of 5 made to order H & H DR's, all made for one man to his specifications that were just appraised for more than US $165,000.00 each. There are some very high priced H & H DR's out there, but I also agree that most do not go for that kind of money.

All I am saying, is that I believe there is no better forumn than this one to create a listing of DR's, listing there strong and weak points and to establish which makes are the best buy for the money! Why not share the knowledge and expertees that are gathered here with the other members?


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MauserRifle
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: CptCurl]
      #37412 - 14/09/05 08:17 AM

CptCurl

BRAVO That was a great reply, to the point and very informative and helpful. I have heard that the Merkel was a very good rifle for the money.

What do you think of a site on this forum listing the various makes of DR's giving the pros and cons? I am sure that several makes would fall into the same catagory!



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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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500Nitro
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37416 - 14/09/05 08:43 AM


Mauserrifle,

I don't mind your suggestion - I'll put my 2 bob in.

The problem I see is that you can't go by the name on the gun
all of the time - you need to delve down into who made the gun.
ie Army and Navy DR's - often made on Webely Screw Grip
and PHV 1 Actions.

Like the Army and Navy 577 and 450/400 SafariKid posted as for
sale. Ray Atkinson made a comment on the AR Forum that you couldn't
do any better.

Alot of people - especially in the past and particulalry in the US
pooh poohed Army and Navy as they didn't understand. The same
as people can the Holland Dominion Sidelock action "as it's not a Royal"
without realising the reason some DR's were built on these action - they
are probably THE STRONGEST Working Sidelock action for DR's.

The Webley actions - both Webely Screw Grip and PHV 1 Actions are
again the strongest Boxlock actions around as well as always being well made.

Webely Screw Grip and PHV 1 Actions ae found on many makers guns.

I've just given you my hint as to 3 actions I like.

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

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MauserRifle
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37418 - 14/09/05 09:10 AM

500Nitro

That is great information, Thank You. This is exactly what I was talking about. Informatin from members like you who have a vast knowledge concerning the many and various makes of DR's.

I strongly believe that we need a page, site, what ever you want to call it, that the members can go to and find all this information. I realize that this will take consiberable time and effort, but I really feel there is a great need for the members, like you and several others, who have this vast amount of knowledge concerning DR's to take this challenge on! Members like you, are a wealth of information just waiting to be tapped and spread to all the other members who are not as informed as you few. Also, one must remember all the young new future members that will be joining this forum, they will also need help and the information that you and others possess. This forum and all it stands for, just like hunting needs new young members for it to grow and continue on into the future.

You and the others here with the knowledge have the power to make this happen, why not use it!

You already have a great start with your last post!


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Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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500Nitro
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: MauserRifle]
      #37420 - 14/09/05 09:17 AM


MauserRifle,

Lets keep looking at where everyone can afford.

I just had a look at the 500/465 at H&H New York.
"Royal Scroll Colour Hardened with Holland & Holland in Gold"

We're both right !!!

Anyway, theirs a few to choose from under $30k in the US if that what
people are after.

Interestingly, I just received an email from the US saying prices for 2nd Hand
DR's - good quality working guns, pref English - have gone up 25% in the last year.

That's the feedback I have been getting anyhow but it just confirms it
- that demand is far outstripping supply and as a result prices are increasing.

500 Nitro

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MauserRifle
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Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37425 - 14/09/05 10:48 AM

500Nitro

I know you are right about the price increases. Nineteen months ago, I had the chance to purchase a Rigby best quality 470, never fired and as new for $40,000.00 US. I don't know what I was thinking or doing, must have been sitting around playing with myself, , At any rate, the gun sold by the time I got back to the guy. That same DR just sold a month ago for $50,000.00 US.



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Mauser Rifle

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mickey
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Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Which DR cartridge for YOU! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #37429 - 14/09/05 11:19 AM

MauserRifle

You've got good advice from 500Nitro. The type of action, barrels etc is more important than the name on the rifle. The name will give you level of finish but you can pay extra for the name only. It will also sell for more. I also like Army Navy and have a pretty special litttle 12 Ga sidelock by them. Don't forget their are cheap English Guns that are not worth the money being asked also. Most Cogswell and Harrisons I have seen would fit in here, Most but not all.

To list by maker and quality is a hard chore. Like listing Automobiles or Whiskey. It is very subjective.

I like stuff that is well made and will be worth more to sell than buy. English or sometimes Austrian. I like Thys rifles as I think they are a good combo of quality action, fit and finish.

Obviously where you buy is important. You will not get a good deal from H&H but you can at times from Westley Richards. Once you understand what you are looking at you can even find a deal at a local Gunshow occasionally.

I have no experiance with Merkel, Searcy, Krieghoff etc. I have looked at them all but that is it. Others that I feel actually know what makes a good Double seem impressed with all three as a value and as starters. Personnaly I would save up a few more dollars and buy a nice English Rifle but I know that is not always possible.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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