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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH
      #371883 - 01/12/22 12:17 PM

This post is primarily an RFI restricted to Aussies, apologies, but I have a Colt Government Model (Mk.IV Series 70) re-barreled to .38 JWH inbound to my meagre collection of historical Australian arms, albeit without dies or brass.

Most Aussies know that the .38-45 JWH was developed to stick it up our gun-grabbing Prime Minister John Winston Howard at the time, following his nation-wide ban on .45 pistols for most sporting disciplines, in the wake of the infamous Monash University shooting. Notwithstanding the fact that it was caused by a mentally unstable student (who was a Chinese national) shooting his academic nemesis and several others who got in his way, Prime Minister Howard was empowered by his unchallenged response to the Port Arthur massacre and went after law-abiding handgun owners. It was thought that having a pistol cartridge named after him would be the ultimate payback!

Apparently the .38 JWH was a bit of a bugger to get shooting well, and when the dust finally settled most pistol shooters moved to the .38 Super or .357 SIG, or those disciplines where the .45 was still allowed. This has left the .38 JWH as a largely forgotten blip on the timeline of Australian shooting history, but I am hoping there are still a few NEers out there who were an active part of that phenomenon.

As a collector I am looking for information: specifically
Who was the primary driving force behind the .38 JWH initiative?
Who made the form dies?
Were there standardized dimensions, and if so who did the drawings?
Did the order for Starline .38JWH-headstamped brass from Granite Arms ever arrive in Australia?
Was there a handgun journal or magazine article on the .38JWH at the time?

As a shooter/collector, I am looking for a set of dies, and any head-stamped brass that might remain out there somewhere.

...and I am aware of the similar wildcats developed stateside: ie .38-45 Clerke, the Casull version, and the Hard Head going back to Dean Grennell etc., but the only published article on the JWH I have found so far is in an ACCA Journal ~20 years ago.

Pics will be added when the gun arrives, but in the meantime I would love to hear from anyone who can add anything at all to this fascinating topic.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Hunter4752001
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Reged: 25/01/10
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Loc: Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Marrakai]
      #371885 - 01/12/22 05:23 PM

I was always taken with the concept, however none of the variants were ever standardised ie SAAMI recognised. Very hard to get the specs for them. The JWH is probably the worst in that (from what I've heard) it was a one off clone from the 38 Casull with changes to some dimensions to avoid patent/copywrite problems. Pretty well means you're on your own trying to get dies, cases, or reliable load data. Still, might be a lot of fun trying.

I'm cynical enough to wonder whether it was an attempt to stick it to old Jackboot, or a scam to cash in on all the 45 owners desperate to keep their guns.

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lancaster
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #371886 - 01/12/22 05:43 PM

woh, thats rare
google find nothing about it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: lancaster]
      #371888 - 01/12/22 06:29 PM

I'd prefer to forget the name of John Howard and never see it again. May he die soon. I wouldn't own a firearm named after him.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: NitroX]
      #371918 - 02/12/22 05:59 AM

hehe, look like john howard is able to move some emotions after all this years.

municion.org have two different versions under the name .38-45 hard head


http://old.municion.org/38/38-45HardHead.htm



and http://old.municion.org/Varios/38-45Wild.htm


little diference between them

what was the name of this australian die set maker? I had some of them once from an estate here.
find it - simplex https://simplexreloading.com.au/4-photo-layout/simplex-master-dies/
could it be they made the dies then?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: lancaster]
      #371930 - 02/12/22 03:10 PM

Thanks for that valuable info, lancaster.
Simplex dies were always Bill Marden, but apparently the business was started by his father Eric before my time.

Nice account of Simplex history here BTW.

BUT...
I have a lead to run down as a result of a chance conversation at the pistol club last evening. A fellow shooter believes a local pistol-smith may have been the actual "inventor" of the .38-45 JWH when living in Victoria at the time! Can you believe it?!

If true, I should be able to get the full story from the horse's mouth. How cool is that!


...and John, "Those who choose to forget the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.
But I agree with your sentiment on JWH's longevity.



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (02/12/22 03:22 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Marrakai]
      #371932 - 02/12/22 04:01 PM

Quote:


...and John, "Those who choose to forget the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.
But I agree with your sentiment on JWH's longevity.





I prefer

"Never forget, Never forgive."

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: NitroX]
      #373141 - 15/01/23 08:56 AM

G'Day Fella's,

FYI Marrakai, a couple of mates of mine (DD and GP) and myself (we were all shooting IPSC at the time, so we were all effected by the changes in these new handgun laws), were the ones that came up with the .38 JWH concept.
Over a few coffee's at GP's shop in Fyshwick, over a coupla weeks, at the time, the idea came up.
It went thru a few name changes (as an example- .38 FJWH, etc, etc), before we settled on the final title.

"DD" did all of the foot work after that.
He was employed within the local firearms industry at the time, and had the contacts, both here and in the US, to bring this project to fruition.

iirc, "DD" spoke with Kings Gun Works (in the USA), who subsequently supplied both the 1911, 9mm barrel blanks, and possibly the reloading die sets.
And yes, Starline, did make a run of .38 JWH cases.
These were all available at the time, thru Granite Arms, up until the owner (Mr Garnet Featherstone), passed away, and Granite Arms was no more.

I do remember, Western Sydney Gunsmith (out Picton way), Mr Barry Cockinos was kept busy, converting 1911's in .45 ACP, and or chambering the Kings, 9mm 1911 barrels, to .38 JWH, at the time.
Barry ........ may have also been making reloading dies as well?

Thats about it for the moment Marrakai, I will have a bit more of a think, and see what other info I can come up with.

FYI Marrakia, check out my profile and send me an email.
I will send you some images, relating to the .38 JWH.

Regards and FJWH!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Homer]
      #373142 - 15/01/23 09:55 AM

Seems to me, I first heard of the .38/45 back in the 70's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Hunter4752001
.300 member


Reged: 25/01/10
Posts: 133
Loc: Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: DarylS]
      #373143 - 15/01/23 11:06 AM

Actually the first iteration I know of was the 38/45 which came out in 1963. Since then there have been a number of variations in respect of minor changes to dimensions and parent case (45 ACP vs 45 Win Mag vs 308 etc). Names include 38/45 Clerke, 38 Casull, 45/38 Hard Head, JWH etc. Main result of the egos at work is that there isn't a standard chamber, dimensions, dies or brass, load data etc.

You pays your money and take your chances.

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DarylS
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #373150 - 15/01/23 02:16 PM

There were guys not long ago, shooting a version of this wildcat .38/45 in IPSC.
Seems to me I've heard of a .38/45 Clark.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: DarylS]
      #373153 - 15/01/23 07:14 PM

I just couldn't own a 1911 .38 with any reference to the little prick Howard. The sooner he is forgotten the better.

I'll stick with my STI Trojan 1911 .38 Super.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: NitroX]
      #373162 - 16/01/23 06:00 AM

The only trouble with a .38 Super(or 9mm for that matter), is it isn't a .45.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: DarylS]
      #373169 - 16/01/23 08:02 AM

Quote:

The only trouble with a .38 Super(or 9mm for that matter), is it isn't a .45.



LOL! Yes Daryl!

FJWH!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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85lc
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Homer]
      #373183 - 16/01/23 11:37 AM

If you are looking for something different with some ump, there are oyjer options such as the .400 Cor Bon or .41 Avenger

--------------------
RB

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: 85lc]
      #373186 - 16/01/23 12:28 PM

Not looking for something with more ump at all, already bought the .38 JWH last December.
Finally got my hands on it Friday last, but had a busy weekend so no photos yet
(although it will look just like a nice example of the Mk.IV Series 70).
It has the original spur hammer, and no vandalism of the metal at the grip by stippling or hatching as is often seen. Unfortunately the wood has been sanded smooth without removing the gold Colt escutcheons, but replacement grips are readily available.
No longer has the finger-collet barrel-bush though, replaced with a competition barrel bush by the look.

Thanks for the personal info too, Homer. Greatly appreciated. Certainly clears up a few misconceptions I was laboring under!
Email sent.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Marrakai]
      #373287 - 19/01/23 11:25 AM

Little bit of progress to report:
I managed to acquire a brand new set of loading dies for this cartridge, made(?) by the Vanettens of Bullzi Projectiles. Apparently the local Darwin pistol-smith I mentioned earlier (Graham B__) commissioned a bunch of them, and still had one set left unsold!
I should buy a lotto ticket...
He confirmed the barrel on my newly-acquired Colt is a King's (USA), although it is unmarked but for the ".38 JWH" caliber stamp. Not sure how King's cut their barrels but they were imported already chambered apparently.
Meanwhile, B__ had convinced Clymer to make him a reamer by altering the shoulder angle on a .38 Casull by half a degree and stamping it ".38 FJH"... He then set about rechambering Aussie-made Lissner barrels for interested parties.

While my gun is nice and tight, it seems the barrel will need a bit of adjustment to improve the fit before I start volume shooting.
Now waiting for a rainy day to run my .45 cases through B__'s form dies (all four of them, plus the FLS die to adjust headspace to ~zero in my barrel.
More beers...(sigh)

Never ceases to amaze me how much history can be uncovered by heading off down these crazy historical rabbit-holes!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Marrakai]
      #373289 - 19/01/23 01:13 PM

I had a bunch of swivel links to tighten up the lockup, but no longer have them. They were available in .001" increments, IIRC.
My cobbled together .45ACP 1911 with Wilson barrel and collet that originally started out as a .38 Super, would make 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 50yards from a rest.

Lots of things can be done to a 1911 to improve accuracy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Hunter4752001
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: DarylS]
      #373293 - 19/01/23 06:55 PM

My 1911 went to Jackboot's crusher back in 2003. Hated losing it, but in reality it was well and truly worn out. If I recall correctly I was using a "group gripper" set to extract the most accuracy out of it. The group gripper set (possibly a Wilson Combat product) was a recoil spring guide with a spring in the end together with a modified barrel link. The result was that the barrel was consistently forced into the locking lugs. Reliable and great for accuracy.

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lancaster
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #373296 - 19/01/23 11:30 PM

I wish good luck with the project!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: lancaster]
      #374061 - 12/02/23 09:29 PM

Well some glaciers move faster!

Finally got the first 100 cases formed and loaded, and picked up a 10lb recoil spring from a mate today.
...but it was our monthly Big Game Rifle shoot (plus social!) so I still haven't consummated this project!

To make matters worse, my file uploader has finally died so no pics of the gun or case-forming steps till I get that sorted.

Patience, gentlemen!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Marrakai]
      #376179 - 22/04/23 12:32 AM

Finally worked out how to upload files through my new host's console using cpanel, bit long-winded compared with the simple app I was using previously but should be more reliable in the long run.

So to kick things off, here's the forming sequence for the .38 JWH using Starline .45 ACP donor brass:




...and here's the hardware, nothing to write home about, just a nice well-used Mark IV Series 70 with a properly worked trigger and no unnecessary nonsense:




Meaty muzzle of the Kings Engineering barrel:




More to follow when I get a moment, under the gun so-to-speak prepping the Arms Collectors display for Anzac Day.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: Re-birthing a .38-45 JWH [Re: Marrakai]
      #376185 - 22/04/23 02:04 AM

That should have some good muzzle weight to reduce flip.
I loved my 1911 series 70 - I should never have sold it.
Easy case forming. Nice!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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