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AR2201
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Reged: 31/08/05
Posts: 57
Loc: Oz
458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR
      #36988 - 06/09/05 08:01 PM

I always thought that the 458 Winchester Magnum launched a 500gn projectile at 2,150fps.

But, I've been rummaging around and I'm just not seeing that. eg. Winchester currently lists a 510gn at 2050fps (and that's asking the bloke selling it to you).

Question 1:

What actual performance can be expected from a 458Win?

It is SAAMI rated to 53,000 CUP, but that would be for a bolt gun, would you go that hard in a DR? Pedersoli back their Kodiak to Malin 1895 levels (~45,000 CUP?), thats a big step down.

Question 2:

What performance level could you resonably expect to load the 458Win to in a DR?

AR2201

ps. assume 500gn projectiles out of 24" barrels


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: AR2201]
      #36992 - 07/09/05 12:14 AM

I have a double rifle in 458wm.

Before going into performance, I should say that you should consider rechambering your rifle to 450NE 3 1/4". This will render moot any ejection or extraction issues you may have using a belted rimless case in a DR and also any pressure concerns too.

The guy for talking to about this is JJ Peredueax at Champlin Arms in Enid Oklahoma. He is widely regarded as one of the best double rifle guys in the US. When I talked too JJ this spring about that for my rifle JJ gave a cost range from about $700 to about $1800 (IIRC) for the rechamber all the way to reregulating and reblueing if required. JJ told me about half of rechamber jobs require reregulating and only a fraction of reregulating jobs require reblueing. I bought my rifle with the expectation that it would be rechambered and it yet may be.

I sent the rifle to JJ for a check before finalizing the purchase. JJ sugested that my particular rifle didn't need rechambering since it has the best of the methods of extracting and ejecting belted rimless rounds, in his experience, a very reliable system and since my rifle shot unusually well. You will hear from many on this forum, some with tons of experience, that no system is reliable enough and only rimmed or flanged rounds are suitable in a DR intended for use against dangerous game. On the other hand I've fired about 180 rounds through my rifle in the five months I've owned it and JJ has fired a bunch too and neither of us can make it fail.

I'd have JJ check the rifle over before finalizing a purchase for these reasons. In fact I would have JJ check over any DR I was going to buy since I'm no expert on DRs.

Unless you reregulate your rifle you are pretty stuck shooting a load that matches the load your rifle was regulated with. If you need info on regulation do a search here on this forum, look at Champlins web site and also at Hollowell's web site; I believe those web sites have good descritions of what regulation is and what it entails.

Some her also voice concerns about pressure in a double rifle but lots of rifles, from the full range of DR makers - best quality on down, have been built to shoot high pressure rounds. Some here claim high pressure rounds will take a rifle off face after a few hundred rounds. My experience, so far, is contrary to this claim but my rifle is a mid 1980's (modern steel) rifle of particularly high quality.

After all that wind...Performance:

My rifle shoots very well with 500gr Woodleigh softs and solids using 68grs of IMR 3031 for the softs and 67grs for the solids. Norma brass and Fed 215 primers.

Looking at the Hornaday manual and assuming that Woodleighs can be substituted for the Hornadays these loads should produce about 2050fps from 24" barrels. I'm not too sure about the assumptions and have not chrono'd these loads in my rifle - which has 26" barrels - but I'm hoping to do so soon and I'm hoping for 2090fps with the longer barrels.

My rifle also shoots well with 350gr Woodleigh softs over 68grs of 3031. Again using the Hornaday manual and the same assumption this should produce about 2250 from 24" barrels and I'm estimating 2290 from my rifle.

I don't handload and JJ developed these loads for my rifle.

If you search here you should find some posts by Ray Atkinson, a very experienced hunter, who has shot many buffalo and some elephant with his 470NE loaded with 500gr bullets at 2050fps. He reports very good results. I can't imagine a detectable, let alone significant, difference in performance between a 500gr bullet out of a 470NE at 2050fps and the same 500gr bullet out of a 458wm at 2050. I have no personal experience - yet, but I'm hoping to shoot two buffalo in Zimbabwe with my DR next month with the 500gr loads given above.

I also beleive that the often quoted velocities of the varios NE rounds are generally very optimistic. Just a look at the Kynamco web site seems to confirm this. For just one example they note the often repeated velocity standard of the 470NE but they used 31" barrels to get it.

Hope this long post helps.

JPK


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AR2201
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Reged: 31/08/05
Posts: 57
Loc: Oz
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: JPK]
      #36993 - 07/09/05 12:54 AM

Thanks JPK, your loads are consistent with the picture I have been patching together. Like you say, quoted figures are often optimistic, in this case 2,150 converts to 2,050. Not much on the scale of things, but, having a realistic assessment of your destination saves needless searching.

Zimbabwe trip next month, I have a way to go before I'm a month out from my first Buffalo shoot, but, sounds like you have the gun and loads straight. Are you going for the soft point for the first shot and solids there after?


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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: AR2201]
      #36994 - 07/09/05 12:59 AM

AR2201:

You should spend some time searching Accurate Reloading. (www.accuratereloading.com) You'll see many of the same faces there as you do here. (But AR is A LOT bigger than NE).

I'm sure you will get some additional information from those guys.



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: clark7781]
      #36997 - 07/09/05 02:23 AM

AR2201,

That's the game plan.

I'd also second clark7781's sugestion.

Also Hornaday offers a heavy magnum 458wm load that tops 2150 with 500grs; but the chance of a 458 DR having been regulated with it is slim or none.

JPK


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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: JPK]
      #37005 - 07/09/05 07:09 AM

I've been on the AR Forums for a little while and don't remember too many posts on a 458 WM DR. I think JPK was the first in many moons to post about a DR in 458 WM. He's detailed whatever is needed to get the 458 WM/DR going.

BTW, there's an awful lot of blue sky in the velocities listed with any cartridges of old, especially NE cartridges. As with any cartridge/gun comination, your velocities will differ from the old pressure barrels that were used to test velocity.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (07/09/05 07:12 AM)


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unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: 475Guy]
      #37009 - 07/09/05 08:02 AM

Any rifle chambered by the maker for the 458 Winchester should take the SAAMI pressure from now to doom's day with no problems. If it won't, then it wsn't a good rifle to begin with.

I refuse to use the term "magnum" in the same breath with the 458 Winchester since the term implies a larger than standard case for the type and the 458 has a smaller than standard case for the type. It is really a bolt action cartridge in more ways than just being rimless. I launch my 458's from a bolt action rifle. If I HAD to have a double using this sort of cartridge, I'd go for the 458 Lott and have it regulated for something a tad less than the maximum load, down to around the 458 Winchester's level.


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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: 458 Win Mag - Actual Performance in DR [Re: unspellable]
      #37215 - 11/09/05 07:34 AM

To start with I wouldn't own a double in anything but a rimmed cartridge...thats the 11th commandment...

The 458 was and is a poorly designed cartridge, but never the less its a capable cartridge when properly hand loaded to 2000 FPS plus with a 500 gr. bullet and it will kill any animal on this earth with aplomb, I have seen it work, I have used it, and I know a ton of Africans that use it daily...Most load it to about 2100 FPS but 2000 FPS is sufficient though minimal for any DG......bottom line it works.


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