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NitroXAdministrator
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Question on takedown designs?
      #369500 - 23/09/22 08:58 PM

Looking at the image, the Right appears to have the usual relieved thread. The barrel is screwed in by hand until locked in place with a catch.

Sometimes an interupted thread is used, grooves through the thread allowing the barrel to be slid straight in, a turn and locked into place.

The Westley Richards does not have a visible thread? Is the takedown thethod where the barrel fits into the action and bolt locks up directly into the barrel collar?

A method used on some modern designs.



Quote:

These rifles show two examples of early takedown, or detachable-barrel, bolt actions. The Westley Richards in .425 Magnum Express, top, features a dropbox magazine, which allows the shooter to quickly reload via stripper clips. The Rigby has a threaded barrel and receiver for assembly and disassembly.




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szihn
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: NitroX]
      #369508 - 24/09/22 01:11 AM

The WR the bolt locks into the action as it does on all Mausers. The collar with the lugs and recess is just for the lock-up of the barrel.

All takedown arms with screw threads have the problem of thread wear. In the lugged collar types the female collar and the male collar with the lugs were hardened to minimize the wear.

I do a take down Mauser a bit differently.

I use 1/4 inch steel plate and surface grind 2 faces so they are dead flat. One is set and screwed with an epoxy bed to the rear section of the stock in front of the action very much like the Rigby shown there. On the other, I weld an "arm" to inlet into the forend wood at the 6:00 position under the barrel and use screws and epoxy on it too, so it's set flat to flat against the one in the rear of the rifle. The 2 steel pieces are carefully fitted to match the barrels (I do 2-3 barrels in different calibers as a rule)
Next I drill a long hole down the length of the forend and use a hollow piece of steel tuning cut with a tapered 3/8" thread. (Think of a ram-rod in a muzzleloader to get an idea.) That piece of steel goes through the forward piece of steel and is then threaded into the rear piece and the tapered thread can be tightened as it wears so it never gets loose with age. There is a tapered "head" just where the tube impinges on the steel plate so it self-centers. The steel rod pokes out the front of the forend under the barrel, and I set a sling swivel stud into it on a heads that is also adjustable, to keep the swivel in the 3:00 to 9:00 position. So if the owner gets some thread wear in a few years he/she can adjust the swivel stud to it's horizontal position to compensate. The tapered thread on the rod pulls the set-up into a perfect 6:00 position every time and keeps the barrel assembly from getting sloppy over time. To remove barrel you need only remove the sling from the front swivel, unscrew the rod about 4 turns which unlocks the 2 steel plates. Then you just unscrew the barrel and forend assembly from the action and replace it with the other barrel. They stay zeroed with their respective scopes and irons every time.

In doing the take-down that way I can make a rifle with 2 or 3 barrels, so the owner can swap from (as examples) a 6MM Remington, a 7X57 and a 9.3X57. Or 25-06, 30-06 and 9.3X62. Or even a 7MM Rem Mag, 338 Win mag and 458 Win Mag.

I am making one right now in fact.

It's only a 2 barreled rifle with a 257 Roberts and a 9X57 Mauser. The 9MM I intend to set up with a scout scope and both barrels are set up with standard front sights. The action is made with standard scope bases and I make a peep sight to fold down on the rear base to clear the scope. So the 257 is able to use a 2X-7X scope on the regular base and the sight are a back up system. The 9X57 has the scope base set, screwed and soldered to the barrel and has detachable rings to drop that scope off if need be. All zeroing of the iron sight is done with the front sights on both barrels, and the peep sight works with both. So the regular scope comes to zero with the 257 Roberts and the scout scope is zeroed on it's 9X57 barrel. The irons for each caliber are zeroed for windage and elevation with the same rear peep sight.

Such a rifle is a handy tool for hunting game from coyotes to moose. As a rule I work up a good load with every barrel and provide a set of dies for each caliber and the load data with the rifle.

My idea for this set is the 257 zeroed for 120 grain Nosler Partitions at 200 yards with both scope and irons, and the 9X57 zeroed at 100 with it's scope and irons. The 9X57 is made with a 35 caliber barrel with .358" groove to groove sizing, to use the more standard .358" bullets not the older .356". I intend to set it up the 9X57 for a 100 yard zero with a Nosler 225 Grain Partitions.

Edited by szihn (24/09/22 01:12 AM)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: szihn]
      #369510 - 24/09/22 02:13 AM

The Westley Richards patent detachable barrel system used two locking lugs on the barrel instead of threads. These lugs locked into recesses inside the reinforced teceiver ring. A quarter turn freed the barrel to be pulled straight out of the receiver. A small lever locked the barrel in and kept it from turning. Westley Richardís take down system from about 1900 closely resembles a German 1880 design by Guenther & Hemming , DRPatent No. 12114. This system was frequently used by the Suhl gunmakers Schmidt & Habermann on their target rifles.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: szihn]
      #369520 - 24/09/22 06:14 PM

Hi Steve, I saw your email. I had not responded yet. Glad you are back in. A few times I have noticed the NE iSP server has been playing up and I could not log in either. For short periods.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: szihn]
      #369521 - 24/09/22 06:25 PM

Quote:

The WR the bolt locks into the action as it does on all Mausers. The collar with the lugs and recess is just for the lock-up of the barrel.

All takedown arms with screw threads have the problem of thread wear. In the lugged collar types the female collar and the male collar with the lugs were hardened to minimize the wear.

I do a take down Mauser a bit differently.

I use 1/4 inch steel plate and surface grind 2 faces so they are dead flat. One is set and screwed with an epoxy bed to the rear section of the stock in front of the action very much like the Rigby shown there. On the other, I weld an "arm" to inlet into the forend wood at the 6:00 position under the barrel and use screws and epoxy on it too, so it's set flat to flat against the one in the rear of the rifle. The 2 steel pieces are carefully fitted to match the barrels (I do 2-3 barrels in different calibers as a rule)
Next I drill a long hole down the length of the forend and use a hollow piece of steel tuning cut with a tapered 3/8" thread. (Think of a ram-rod in a muzzleloader to get an idea.) That piece of steel goes through the forward piece of steel and is then threaded into the rear piece and the tapered thread can be tightened as it wears so it never gets loose with age. There is a tapered "head" just where the tube impinges on the steel plate so it self-centers. The steel rod pokes out the front of the forend under the barrel, and I set a sling swivel stud into it on a heads that is also adjustable, to keep the swivel in the 3:00 to 9:00 position. So if the owner gets some thread wear in a few years he/she can adjust the swivel stud to it's horizontal position to compensate. The tapered thread on the rod pulls the set-up into a perfect 6:00 position every time and keeps the barrel assembly from getting sloppy over time. To remove barrel you need only remove the sling from the front swivel, unscrew the rod about 4 turns which unlocks the 2 steel plates. Then you just unscrew the barrel and forend assembly from the action and replace it with the other barrel. They stay zeroed with their respective scopes and irons every time.

In doing the take-down that way I can make a rifle with 2 or 3 barrels, so the owner can swap from (as examples) a 6MM Remington, a 7X57 and a 9.3X57. Or 25-06, 30-06 and 9.3X62. Or even a 7MM Rem Mag, 338 Win mag and 458 Win Mag.

I am making one right now in fact.

It's only a 2 barreled rifle with a 257 Roberts and a 9X57 Mauser. The 9MM I intend to set up with a scout scope and both barrels are set up with standard front sights. The action is made with standard scope bases and I make a peep sight to fold down on the rear base to clear the scope. So the 257 is able to use a 2X-7X scope on the regular base and the sight are a back up system. The 9X57 has the scope base set, screwed and soldered to the barrel and has detachable rings to drop that scope off if need be. All zeroing of the iron sight is done with the front sights on both barrels, and the peep sight works with both. So the regular scope comes to zero with the 257 Roberts and the scout scope is zeroed on it's 9X57 barrel. The irons for each caliber are zeroed for windage and elevation with the same rear peep sight.

Such a rifle is a handy tool for hunting game from coyotes to moose. As a rule I work up a good load with every barrel and provide a set of dies for each caliber and the load data with the rifle.

My idea for this set is the 257 zeroed for 120 grain Nosler Partitions at 200 yards with both scope and irons, and the 9X57 zeroed at 100 with it's scope and irons. The 9X57 is made with a 35 caliber barrel with .358" groove to groove sizing, to use the more standard .358" bullets not the older .356". I intend to set it up the 9X57 for a 100 yard zero with a Nosler 225 Grain Partitions.




That sounds like a good setup. If you aren't giving away traded secrets some photos on your method would be much appreciated. Ivan post them when or if they are ready if you like. Even finished rifles if you can't supply the mechanism images.

The thread wear problem is a real one. A reason some modern designs like the Mauser M03, the Dakota takedown and others have the bolt locking up in a collar on the barrel. No thread wear. The collar merely fitting into the action.

No possible I believe if modifying an existing M98 or M70 etc. Your method sounds like it fixes the problem.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Posts: 35769
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: kuduae]
      #369522 - 24/09/22 06:28 PM

Quote:

The Westley Richards patent detachable barrel system used two locking lugs on the barrel instead of threads. These lugs locked into recesses inside the reinforced teceiver ring. A quarter turn freed the barrel to be pulled straight out of the receiver. A small lever locked the barrel in and kept it from turning. Westley Richardís take down system from about 1900 closely resembles a German 1880 design by Guenther & Hemming , DRPatent No. 12114. This system was frequently used by the Suhl gunmakers Schmidt & Habermann on their target rifles.






Thanks. Great images. I'm guessing for the bolt action, the bolt still locks up in the action and not the barrel?

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: NitroX]
      #369548 - 25/09/22 01:14 AM

Quote:

I'm guessing for the bolt action, the bolt still locks up in the action and not the barrel?



Yes, the bolt as well as the barrel both lock into respective recesses inside the receiver ring.


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: kuduae]
      #369565 - 26/09/22 07:17 AM

"All takedown arms with screw threads have the problem of thread wear"

When does "thread wear" become a problem?

When the rifle is new? After 1,000, 10,000 take downs, 20,000 takedowns, ???
Or is it age in decades? Or is it a physical fact that can be adjusted for as use and time passes?
One of my Winchester TD rifles has the ability to adjust for thread wear. After 20 years, no sign of wear yet.

Personally, I think too much fuss is made of takedown thread wear. Yes it could happen, but with how many takedowns? Until it happens OR the maker (Winchester) tells me when/how many takedowns, I will not lose any sleep over it. Therefore, thread wear is a possibility, but not a problem.
Those rifles will probably outlast me by a LONG time.

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crshelton
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: crshelton]
      #369566 - 26/09/22 07:33 AM

The barrel is screwed in by hand until locked in place with a catch."

Somewhat overstated.
On my Winchesters, the barrel threads do not engage until the barrel section slides into place and THEN the barrel section is rotated 90 degrees ( 1/4 turn) and locked into place.
Not much contact or friction, therefore very little wear. As an owner and operator of this feature, I do not consider it a problem. A fact and a feature, but NOT a problem.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: crshelton]
      #369599 - 27/09/22 09:26 PM

Much fuss is made of thread wear on take-down rifles but in reality its a non event especially on modern rifles. There are a few points to take into consideration:

The threads are lubricated with either anti-seize or grease so are not rubbing against each other dry.

The threads are finished to a reasonably high surface finish so friction is minimal and the threads are only screwed together or apart at hand speed and only occasionally, not every five minutes. Most people would travel with the gun apart and screw it together once in camp where it would stay like that until they leave. And most people don't go hunting every week where a take-down rifle is required.

The threads of the action are heat treated either by hardening and tempering or case hardening which is the case with most Mauser actions, therefore the threads are hard.

The barrels are made of good quality steel and in the case of modern barrels out of 4140 which is also hardened and tempered.

Most Modern take-down rifles use and ACME thread profile as opposed to a V-Thread, which was designed for screw threads and therefore intended for situations which require regular screwing together and apart.

Most modern Take-down rifles also hard chrome the male thread of the barrel which gives a glass hard surface with a very low coefficient of friction.

Therefore in normal use with a little care thread wear is not an issue.

Matt.

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crshelton
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Re: Question on takedown designs? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #369635 - 29/09/22 08:30 AM

What Matt said, plus 1.

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