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veloce
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Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons
      #368795 - 30/08/22 05:43 AM

Hello, everyone:
I just purchased this interesting rifle, which appears to be a very early takedown conversion by Dickson and Sons of Edinburgh.
I mainly collect original Mauser sporting rifles and have little familiarity with these. The caliber is not marked but appears to be smaller then 30.06. The receiver is marked Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf a/N 1900.
The serial is 26xx in a commercial fashion with Crown/B, Crown/U and Crown/V on the receiver and Crown/V and two unknown crown proofs on the left barrel shank.
Is this an original commercial Mauser action?
Was the original barrel used in the conversion or a custom barrel added by Dickson?(the barrel shank has the same serial and the same font as the receiver serial)
Finally, most takedowns made by Dickson appear to be Mannlichers?
Are the Mauser conversions more uncommon?
What is the number on top of the barrel? It is different from the gun’s serial.
Is the number on the trigger guard a Dickson applied serial?
Any comments are welcome!
Thank you!

]https://www.dropbox.com/s/7amhf6mt4b8ahkq/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2052%2007%20PM.jpg?dl=0[/image]
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvuhc1877adbh6k/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2054%2000%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/11xdoar7gyro71c/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2054%2005%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5vhau359yzu9zy/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2054%2022%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z1dok3w5pepi5r3/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2055%2014%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dloomjwobef7o2d/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2055%2033%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a8p71fy0p4kfmr/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2056%2002%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l1ohimgdvyey5dp/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2056%2024%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5sxmy4e15f9lieh/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2056%2044%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8lpjsx7mfaip8k/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2056%2057%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yktvuw3lzpx60e7/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2057%2025%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f4de6e1kbkirr8b/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2058%2002%20PM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek6hddby84z4ft7/Photo%20Jul%2014%2C%203%2059%2051%20PM.jpg?dl=0

Edited by veloce (30/08/22 06:18 AM)


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93x64mm
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #368796 - 30/08/22 05:52 AM

Firstly welcome veloce!
It sounds an interesting piece, might be best to get a casting of your chamber & slug of your barrel just in case.
How to post photos - best of luck mate, looking forward to seeing them
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=IT


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mckinney
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: 93x64mm]
      #368801 - 30/08/22 11:51 AM

Great looking rifle. Definitely an original Mauser sporting action and a very early one. I don’t think it’s a conversion - it looks to have been stocked by the Scottish makers. Possibly 7x57 caliber but would need to see the markings on the bottom side of the barrel.

Anyway a very nice rifle. I’m sure others will be along with more insights.


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kuduae
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: mckinney]
      #368809 - 30/08/22 08:53 PM

As the barrel shows the typical contemporary Oberndorf BU proofmarks, it is certainly the original barrel from the Mauser factory. One photo shows the first three digits of he old gauge number 222.5 for a 7 mm bore. So it is a 7x57 aka .275 (Rigby) aka 7 mm Mauser.

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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: kuduae]
      #368813 - 31/08/22 12:24 AM

Thank you, everyone!
Any idea why the number on top of the barrel is different from one on the trigger guard?
How were these original Mauser barrels converted into a takedown version? Seems like a lot of work - would have been easier to make a takedown barrel from scratch..

--------------------
veloce


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kuduae
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #368819 - 31/08/22 04:06 AM

Quote:

Any idea why the number on top of the barrel is different from one on the trigger guard?



2648 is the Mauser commercial serial number. The engraved number 5346 on the barrel seems to be Dickson’s. The stamped number 1760 on the triggerguard may be one of another retailer who bought in the rifle from Dickson & Son.
Quote:

How were these original Mauser barrels converted into a takedown version? Seems like a lot of work - would have been easier to make a takedown barrel from scratch..



It’s very easy to convert a 98 or transitional Mauser barrel to takedown. On these actions the barrel is screwed in until it abuts a collar inside the receiver ring. To convert the tightly fitted barrel to a full screw-in takedown like on this rifle, screw it out by using a barrel vise and wrench. Rework he barrel threads a bit until the barrel screws in or out by hand. This can be done by either using a lathe or even by careful use of a triangular file in the threads. Bore and tap a hole into the receiver ring for a set screw to lock the barrel in.


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lancaster
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: kuduae]
      #368821 - 31/08/22 04:20 AM

every time I read this being in doubt you can srew in the barrel by hand so much its tight enough.
would not become better if you rework the thread so you are able to turn it by hand.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: lancaster]
      #368822 - 31/08/22 06:01 AM

Thank you!
I have seen Rigby rifles with similar trigger guard numbers.
Was that a standard practice for most English gun makers?

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veloce


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kuduae
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: lancaster]
      #368844 - 01/09/22 02:24 AM

Quote:

every time I read this being in doubt you can srew in the barrel by hand so much its tight enough.



The somewhat loose barrel to receiver joint did not matter much when barrel mounted iron sights only were used. It became a problem when scopes were mounted on the receiver, independent of the barrel, at least in part. To quote Rigby’s 1924 leaflet on their Mausers, on The “Take Down” Model: “We do not recommend this if a telescope sight is required.”.


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: kuduae]
      #368887 - 02/09/22 10:44 AM

Bonus info and pictures!
It turns out that the inscription on the lid of the case reads:
R. S. Hunter - Blair
Gordon Highlanders

After a brief google search it turns out that Captain R. S. Hunter Blair was in the Gordon Highlanders(a Scott Regiment in the British Army until 1994) starting in 1881! It would be interesting to find out any additional history on the good captain and how this rifle ended up in US.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4hr2742qdi7qul/IMG_4893.heic?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nclwjiiwh34r7s9/IMG_4895.heic?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fl0ptfumxqsc16d/IMG_4897.PNG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wiyk60pbmcgy0cr/IMG_4893%20%281%29.heic?dl=0

--------------------
veloce

Edited by veloce (02/09/22 10:46 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #368888 - 02/09/22 01:44 PM







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: lancaster]
      #368974 - 04/09/22 11:55 PM

So, I reached out to Dickson and Son and received some interesting info about this particular rifle.
I was made by them in 1901 for "stock" and not as a special order "bespoke" rifle. The ledger book does not show the name of the buyer.(Apparently, only bespoke guns had names of the buyers entered in the ledger). They did mention that the Hunter-Blair family had been a customer for many years. The serial on top of the barrel is indeed a Dickson applied serial number. They do not know what the trigger guard number(1760) signifies. The same number is also located on the left side of the receiver wall right under the wood line. Having looked at the similar trigger guard applied numbers, this one appears very similar to a Rigby serial numbers. Could this be possible that the unfinished Mauser action was purchased originally by Rigby and then sold by to Dickson, who then completed the rifle? I believe the serial( if Rigby’s) places it in the same time frame?
Here are some pictures:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7taiubflu18m0d5/IMG_4908.HEIC?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h6bqw3ux31pf4fw/IMG_4923.HEIC?dl=0

--------------------
veloce

Edited by veloce (05/09/22 01:45 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #368975 - 05/09/22 01:34 AM





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: lancaster]
      #368976 - 05/09/22 01:44 AM

Thank you for posting my pictures!
For some reason, I have been only able to do the links….
I also found this picture of the Rigby takedown that has numbers 1 and 0 in the serial number on the trigger guard. As you can see, the font is identical to the 1 and 0 on my rifle’s trigger guard.
Also, the gold filled “safe” marking on the safety is identical to mine as well.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6qve83zq9ad18u/IMG_4962.PNG?dl=0

Edited by veloce (05/09/22 01:51 AM)


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #368995 - 05/09/22 10:52 PM

Bingo!
The final piece of the puzzle falls into its place!
Just heard back from Rigby!
Indeed, rifle with Rigby serial number 1760 was sold to John Dickson and Son in August of 1901!
Rigby will find out if it was sold as a barreled action or as a complete gun and will issue a historical letter.

--------------------
veloce


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Huvius
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #368997 - 06/09/22 01:59 AM

Very cool rifle!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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tinker
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: Huvius]
      #368999 - 06/09/22 05:56 AM

Definitely

The more you look at it the cooler it gets.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Huvius
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: tinker]
      #369008 - 06/09/22 11:41 AM

Quote:

Definitely

The more you look at it the cooler it gets.




True.
I'm going to bet that Rigby built the entire rifle. Looks 100% Rigby to me anyway.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: Huvius]
      #369017 - 07/09/22 02:53 AM

Well, I am very impressed with Huvius's assessment.
The certification letter from Rigby indicates that it was indeed a complete Best Mauser takedown rifle that was sold to Dickson on August 22, 1901.
So, yes, it is a Rigby made rifle, except for one detail - the takedown system appears to be a Dickson takedown system that used a set screw on the left side of the receiver to secure the barrel.
Which sort of takedown did Rigby use at that time?
Is it possible that Dickson converted it to their own takedown style?
And if so - would there be indications in the stock inletting that a different takedown was installed prior?
My only other explanation of this inconsistency is that it might be possible that Dickson ordered a rifle from Rigby specifically with this sort of takedown.
Looking forward to your comments!

--------------------
veloce


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Huvius
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #369021 - 07/09/22 05:30 AM

The screw in the receiver ring style system isn’t really specific to any one maker - W.J. Jeffery used that system quite a bit.
My guess is that it was supplied to Dickson that way although not a problem for them to change a fixed barrel rifle to a takedown.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: Huvius]
      #369022 - 07/09/22 06:03 AM

The point I was trying to make is that the gun was sold to Dickson as a takedown. And Rigby did not use that sort of system. In Rigby's system the forend was inletted for a takedown lever. So, at the very minimum, the forend would have had to be changed by Dickson and then the screw hole drilled in the receiver. I will inspect the forend one more time to see if there is a difference in wood grain between it and the buttstock.

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veloce


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kuduae
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #369024 - 07/09/22 06:58 AM

Quote:

The point I was trying to make is that the gun was sold to Dickson as a takedown. And Rigby did not use that sort of system. In Rigby's system the forend was inletted for a takedown lever.



Not on such very early Rigby takedowns. I have once seen another very early Rigby takedown in .303 on a short intermediate, slant magazine action from about 1902 with this side screw system. A few years later Rigby changed to their foreend latch system.


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veloce
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: kuduae]
      #369026 - 07/09/22 09:12 AM

Wow!
Your knowledge base on this forum is incredible!
Thank you!
Then I guess the only thing Dickson did was engrave their name on top of the barrel.
Needless to say, I am very happy with this rifle.

--------------------
veloce


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Early Mauser Oberndorf takedown by Dickson and Sons [Re: veloce]
      #369180 - 11/09/22 06:49 PM

Very nice rifle indeed, you should be pretty happy with your purchase. Looking forward to a range report.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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