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CarlsenHighway
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The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge
#368430 - 18/08/22 09:04 AM

What I mean by this, is that it doesn't exist.

There is no such thing as a .275 ""Rigby"" cartridge.

Its a name made up by modern American gun writers from a misunderstanding. The cartridge was just called a .275. The rifle was called a Rigby-Mauser. Rigby sold Mauser rifles under that brand name.

The 7mm Mauser cartridge was never a Rigby proprietary cartridge (it was military for several countries). Rigby did not sell it as the .275 Rigby on their own brand of ammo , they called it the .275 bore, and they stamped their rifles the same. There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970.

The two most famous users of the .275 / 7mm Mauser would have to be WDM Bell, who famously shot 800 bull elephant with one and Jim Corbett of India who shot at least one man eating tiger with one. Both of them referred to the cartridge variously as the .275, the .276, the 7mm, the 7mm Mauser or to the cartridge and rifle together: the .275 in a Rigby-Mauser.

British website and auction houses are often more correct and dont fall for this (apart from Rigby themselves, who must be delighted).

It started with Jack O'Conner with an article in 1970, where he mistook the Rigby name as referring to the cartridge and not the rifle, and people have been running with it ever since. It's now all over the internet as if it's a valid thing, and no article on the 7x57 is ever innocent of mentioning it. Even responsible people like Craig Boddington and John Barsness, have all fallen for this. Hornady have brought out 7mm brass headstamped .275 Rigby. Even Rigby themselves (the new company) - who should know better - now sell ammunition headstamped .275 Rigby (which they may not, they all seem very young.) Original .275 Hi-velocity cartridges of the early 20th century are stamped Roth, which was the German made ammunition that Rigby repackaged and sold as their own.

Meanwhile sundry people are building 7x57 custom rifles and having them marked "".275 Rigby"" because they like the traditional British old-world sound of it.

It's essentially become a true thing. And it sounds like it should be right. People believe it when they hear it. The power of the internet has made it so. But its just a .275. Or a 7mm Mauser.

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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
#368433 - 18/08/22 03:55 PM

Image below showing labelling of the lid end of the same old Rigby ammo box with ammunition referred to as .275 Mauser not .275 Rigby. Pity cartridge head-stamps can't be seen to confirm exactly what nomenclature was applied to the ammunition. I'm betting most likely 7x57 or in keeping with the age, 7mm Mauser.

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
#368434 - 18/08/22 04:47 PM

Rifles engraved as Rigby .275 Bore, effectively the same thing.

What does Kynoch ammo boxes say?

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#368435 - 18/08/22 07:29 PM

Google image search.

Boxes appear to be labelled either as:

- 7 mm Mauser; &

- .275 Magnum Rimless - for Holland & Holland rifles.

Adding credibility to opening poster's argument.

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John aka NitroX

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cooch
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#368437 - 18/08/22 07:49 PM

“There’s no such thing”

It would appear that there is.... now.

Given that the majority of cartridges and named according to some inventor or manufacturer’s whimsy, it’s hard to argue otherwise.

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CarlsenHighway
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: cooch]
#368442 - 18/08/22 09:43 PM

You might argue that it doesn't matter, and that it has now been invented by common useage, except for the fact that the entire cachet of the cartridge name is based purely on nostalgia; whenever it is mentioned in an American article for example, it's always in a historical sense. And when someone stamps it on a custom rifle it is to hark back to old world British big game sporting rifles.

But if it didn't exist in the past, then there is no nostalgia and there is no history. Then it's just a mistake.

Another example: In the Rigby ledgers the six 7mm sporting rifles that WDM Bell bought from them between 1910 and 1923 are all recorded as ".275 High velocity Mauser". (This to show that even Rigby didn't call the chambering a .275 Rigby - back when they were supposedly making them.)

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Huvius
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
#368446 - 19/08/22 01:45 AM

I think the "Rigby" ID is that of the cartridges loaded with the 140gr bullet at higher velocity than the standard 7X57
It was Rigby's loading for their rifles sighted to that load.
Bell famously used the military ammunition for elephant so it would seem that, if there was any difference in POI, he compensated for that.

Also, what of the many modern rifles stamped "275 Rigby" - do you need to have ammunition headstamped the same to get through Customs in Africa? I've heard that is the case but don't know for sure.

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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
#368448 - 19/08/22 02:37 AM

Quote:

But if it didn't exist in the past, then there is no nostalgia and there is no history. Then it's just a mistake.

totally agree with this

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
#368449 - 19/08/22 07:51 PM

Well the 7x57 or7mm Mauser or .275 Mauser ...

Rigby historically have been smart labelling their rifles:
"Rigby .275 bore".

Gunwriters picked it up. It has become part of general popular usage.

The association with Rigby is probably due to in English speaking countries the popularity of .275 rifles and the chamerbing by Rigby.

At one time, still? Gunwriters blab the 7x57 is a dead cartridge. So unpopular it no longer exists. I remember reading an article where the writer discussed how the 7x57 loaded ammo was unpowered. Due to 7x57 loaded ammo needing to cope with older rifles not capable of modern pressures. Some military rolling block single shots or some such.

The 7mm/08 is a dead cartridge, not the 7x57. The7mm/08 was the must have creedmoor of the day.

Accidentally the .275 Rigby nomenclature is accidentally sort of like many modern words where the originally meanings have been completely changed on purpose. And 99% of people parrot these words with the new meanings.

Btw I always preferred the nomenclature 7x57 and perhaps 7mm Mauser. The ".275 Rigby" always sounded affected.

Not that I wouldn't mind a vintage Rigby, WR, Jeffery or H&H .275 bore classic sporter.

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crshelton
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#368450 - 19/08/22 10:07 PM

As stated previously, "You might argue that it doesn't matter, "

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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: crshelton]
#368451 - 20/08/22 01:25 AM

Quote:

I think the "Rigby" ID is that of the cartridges loaded with the 140gr bullet at higher velocity than the standard 7X57
It was Rigby's loading for their rifles sighted to that load.
Bell famously used the military ammunition for elephant so it would seem that, if there was any difference in POI, he compensated for that.

Rigby’s 1924 catalog showed two models of their .275 rifles: Their No.1 was sighted for the standard 7x57 / 7mm Mauser load with 175 gr bullets, while their No.2 was sighted for the 140 gr High Velocity load. The sighting seems to be the only difference. So Bell may have used the No.1 model.
BTW, that catalog listed a No.4 model in .350 Magnum and a No.5 in .416 “Big Game” too. None of the cartridges were called “Rigby” by them.

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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
#368453 - 20/08/22 01:40 AM

Manton’s, Calcutta, 1925 catalog called the 7x57 175 gr load “.275 MAUSER”, while the 140 gr load was the “.275 RIGBY, No. 2 H.V.”.

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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
#368457 - 20/08/22 02:41 AM

if you hold all facts here in line you must come to the conclusion in the end the .275 mauser cartridge is exactly this - a .275/ 7x57 chambered in a mauser rifle, sometimes build into a sporting rifle by Rigby.

personel must say ".275 Rigby" looks allways a little bit gay in my eyes and after this thread I know why!

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sharps4590
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
#368467 - 20/08/22 10:14 PM

It's more accurate than using "caliber" for "cartridge."

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: sharps4590]
#368471 - 21/08/22 02:39 AM

Quote:

It's more accurate than using "caliber" for "cartridge."

I absolutely agree.

A pet dislike for me.

Cartridge chamberings is what people often call "calibre".

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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#368481 - 21/08/22 09:38 AM

I have always preferred "chambering" myself.

On topic, I think "Rigby's .275" but usually type ".275 Rigby".

If Manton's of Calcutta called the 140gr loading ".275 Rigby" in 1925, that's hardly fantasy.
Good enough for me!

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
#373218 - 17/01/23 02:12 AM

I've posted this discussion on the NE Facebook group.

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John aka NitroX

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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373233 - 17/01/23 01:19 PM

I wonder what length barrel the .275 140gr load was chronographed in. Probably 28" which is usual par for the course for the English when chronographing their ammunition. With the Rigby No 2 rifle having a 23.5" barrel Rigby were stretching the truth somewhat with their advertised MV of 3000fps.
I can't imagine them loading to much over the lower pressure level that the 7x57/.275 would have been loaded back in those days.

It is not possible or easy to get the 7mm-08 in modern loadings up to a MV of 3000fps with a 140gr bullet in a 24" barrel (Hornady Superformance gets to 2950fps with a 139gr bullet and their special powder - 2900fps in a 24" barrel I have chronographed) and while the 7x57 cartridge has a little more case capacity, powders and pressure specifications of the day wouldn't have seen the .275 cartridge for the Rigby No.2 approaching anywhere near 3000fps MV.
Nevertheless I imagine the lighter bullet at somewhere round 2800fps MV, maybe optimistic at that, would have been a better performer on smaller game than the commonly loaded slow heavy 175gr bullet.

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
#373239 - 18/01/23 12:26 AM

To assume old factory loadings is biased against the 7x57. A lot of factory ammo was risk adverse under loaded because of ancient rolling block military 7x57s ... At least per an article I read decades ago. A reason the 7x57 was regarded as a lacklustre cartridge. Underloaded factory ammunition inlaw suit happy USA. Also the USA with the insistence of factory ammunition. Most other places hand loading is far more the norm. And the larger powder capacity shoukd easily outdo the 7mm08 with reasonable handloads. Sure not by much but ...

The .275 HV ammo for the 7x57 I would guess were NOT limited by under loading? Designed for specific Mauser 98 rifles. Still were around a long enough time ago it should be possible to exceed today.

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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373242 - 18/01/23 05:06 AM

CIP (European Law) pressure limit on the 7x57(.276) case, was and is 57,000PSI/49,000CUP. That is only 4,000PSI/3,000cup under the 7mm/08's 61,000PSI/52,000CUP,
however, that difference will pretty much make up for the larger case of the 7mm vs. the 7mm/08, thus max. vel. at their pressure limits should be about equal.
Norma is one of the Euro companies who appears to load to the CIP specs, of course.

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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
#373250 - 18/01/23 08:22 AM

I recall Norma 150gr factory loads back in the 60's and 70's were around 2800fps MV so yes Norma did load to the CIP specs. Unfortunately they were the exception and even today almost all 7x57 factory loads from various manufacturers, both European and American, are down quite a bit in MV compared to the 7mm-08 loadings.

The Brits underloaded most of their cartridges because they didn't have the powders back then, even when they went from cordite to the nitrocellulose granular powders such as the Nobel range they still tended to underload.

While the 7x57/.275 can definitely be improved and loaded to the same if not higher level than the 7mm-08, the vast majority of shooters are not hand-loaders.

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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
#373251 - 18/01/23 08:26 AM

All my life, if I hadn't loaded my own, for everything but rim fire, I wouldn't
have been able to shoot enough to become reasonably proficient at the game.
I loaded my Ruger #1 with 140gr. Partitions at 2,940fps. It had a 22" bl. Reloader 19, seems to me, offhand. Same load as in Nosler's book, but got a bit more speed. They listed 2,890 something from a 24" bl.

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Daryl

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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
#373258 - 18/01/23 10:18 AM

Not long after acquiring my pre-WWI Rigby .275 (chambered for the ".275 Rigby" cartridge) I pushed the load development and got to around 2980 fps IIRC before (very) slight resistance to bolt-lift after firing. I was chasing the published 3000 fps with the 140-grainer, just to see if it could be done with modern powders, but I am fairly conservative so after discovering that was the probable limit I have since backed off to a bit under 2950 fps as a working load.
Barrel is only 22 inches. Reckon I would have safely achieved 3000fps with a 24-inch barrel, but that's just a number...
Not worth pushing it on hundred-year-old rifles!

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Marrakai
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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
#373259 - 18/01/23 11:20 AM

My BRNO 7x57 ran 2,730fps or so, with a 160gr. TSX. It had a 23.4" bl. I think.

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Daryl

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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
#373322 - 20/01/23 10:53 AM

It is interesting the Rigby literature claim of 3000'/sec for their .275HV in the Rigby Mauser Model #2 rifle. Perhaps a bit of "artistic license" as to the claimed muzzle velocity?

Other sources like John Taylor give a speed of 2750'/sec and Cartridges of the World attributed 2800'/sec.

Certainly the average hunter/shooter back in the day did not have access to any kind of chronograph, but hey, catalog speed sounded good and maybe led to spirited campfire debate?

One of these days I may be lucky enough to come across a vintage box of Kynoch .275 HV ammo and I will certainly sacrifice 3 rounds to my LabRadar chronograph and my original 1936 Rigby "Sighted For High Velocity .275 Bore Cartridge" rifle.

Personally, given the powders available in the 1920's & 1930's, I'm betting closer to the 2750-2800 number…..

- Mike

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373331 - 20/01/23 11:20 PM

Easily explained by rifle makers using 30 inch barrels in test rifles.

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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373343 - 21/01/23 05:11 AM

Quote:

It is interesting the Rigby literature claim of 3000'/sec for their .275HV in the Rigby Mauser Model #2 rifle. Perhaps a bit of "artistic license" as to the claimed muzzle velocity?

Other sources like John Taylor give a speed of 2750'/sec and Cartridges of the World attributed 2800'/sec.

Certainly the average hunter/shooter back in the day did not have access to any kind of chronograph, but hey, catalog speed sounded good and maybe led to spirited campfire debate?

One of these days I may be lucky enough to come across a vintage box of Kynoch .275 HV ammo and I will certainly sacrifice 3 rounds to my LabRadar chronograph and my original 1936 Rigby "Sighted For High Velocity .275 Bore Cartridge" rifle.

Personally, given the powders available in the 1920's & 1930's, I'm betting closer to the 2750-2800 number…..

- Mike

Or even slightly lower, 2,700fps to 2,750fps tops.

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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373344 - 21/01/23 05:32 AM

Quote:

Easily explained by rifle makers using 30 inch barrels in test rifles.

I think Mauser possibly used 28" test barrels (~71 centimeters), Brits certainly used 30" sometimes more, not that it makes a great deal of difference.
Perhaps kuduae will pop in and give a definitive answer?

At any rate my 1936 Rigby Mauser has an action that is Mauser serial number #1123 from 1899 production so I'm not inclined to experiment with trying to attain the "advertised" 3000'/sec.
Shoots "to the sights" at ~2775'-2800'/sec with 140 grain Nosler Partition's. (or close enough with the iron sights and my old eyes)
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
#373345 - 21/01/23 05:37 AM

Quote:

Easily explained by rifle makers using 30 inch barrels in test rifles.

I think Mauser possibly used 28" test barrels (~71 centimeters), Brits certainly used 30" sometimes more, not that it makes a great deal of difference.
Perhaps kuduae will pop in and give a definitive answer?

At any rate my 1936 Rigby Mauser has an action that is Mauser serial number #1123 from 1899 production so I'm not inclined to experiment with trying to attain the "advertised" 3000'/sec.
Shoots "to the sights" at ~2775'-2800'/sec with 140 grain Nosler Partition's. (or close enough with the iron sights and my tired eyes)
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373379 - 21/01/23 08:37 PM

Personally I'm not a velocity fanatic. Most of my handholds, I picked for accuracy not the highest velocity. Usually the sweet spot is achieved several loads before too high pressure starts to appear.

I wonder if some handloaders sacrifice accuracy for higher velocities.

If one wanted great velocity, different choices than a 7x57, 7x64 etc. A 7 mm STW perhaps? I believe there is a 7mm Nosler?

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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373380 - 21/01/23 11:36 PM

As 3DogMike asked for it:
Rigby indeed advertised the 3000 fps muzzle velocity of their 140 gr load in the early 1900s. At that time the “measuring” of bullet velocities was still in it’s infancy. Up to after WW2 there were no electronical devices, only mechanical ones. The gold standard was the Le Boulenge’s falling rod apparatus, but even that required a lot of guesswork and was very expensive. The readout was for an average over longer, more than 10 meter distances only and required calculations for the velocity at the muzzle. So cataloged velocities were usually guessed at and rounded up.
As Rigby had their cartridges loaded by Kynoch, a look at the Kynoch tables may help. In their 1925 catalog Kynoch listed the 7 mm (.276) Mauser Rifle 140 gr pointed bullet load with 43 gr smokeless at 2800 fps, no barrel length given.
An undated ca. 1930 ICI/Kynoch catalog gives these loads:
.275 Rimless (Rigby): 140 gr bullet, 43 gr. N.C., 2750 fps from 28” barrel, pressure 18 tons/sq.in.
7 mm (.276) Mauser: 140 gr bullet, 48 gr. N.C., 2900 fps from 29“ barrel, 18.5 tons/sq.in.
7 mm Rigby Magnum: 140 gr bullet, 40 gr N.C., 2675 fps from 29.5” barrel, 17 tons/sq.in. (maybe Rigby’s rimmed version?)
The .275 Rigby is listed with a lower velocity and pressure than the 7x57 Mauser. A bit confusing, but it matches the now CIP maximum pressures, 3900 bar for the 7x57 and only 3200 bar for the .275 H.V. Rigby.
Comparable German 1930s 7x57 loads were:
DWM: 139 gr bullet, 49 gr R2 powder, 2697 fps, 2800 atm, 26” barrel
RWS: 139 gr bullet, 49.5 gr R2, 2776 fps, 2850 atm pressure, 26” barrel
So the .275 Rigby 140 gr “High Velocity” load is a far cry from a “hot loaded 7x57”. I would expect 2600 to 2700 fps from a 24” barrel.

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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
#373383 - 22/01/23 01:45 AM

maybe kynoch download the .275 rigby for the use in hot climate

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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373384 - 22/01/23 01:47 AM

Quote:

Personally I'm not a velocity fanatic. Most of my handholds, I picked for accuracy not the highest velocity. Usually the sweet spot is achieved several loads before too high pressure starts to appear.

I wonder if some handloaders sacrifice accuracy for higher velocities.

If one wanted great velocity, different choices than a 7x57, 7x64 etc. A 7 mm STW perhaps? I believe there is a 7mm Nosler?

classic would be 7 mm SE vom Hofe

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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
#373385 - 22/01/23 02:16 AM

kuduae,
Exactly what I was looking for. Many thanks for posting the info.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373386 - 22/01/23 02:54 AM

Quote:

classic would be 7 mm SE vom Hofe

Another cartridge that never achieved the ballistics advertised by the inventor, 170 gr at 3294 fps, from any existing rifle barrel when shot over a modern chronograph. 2950 fps from a 26” barrel was the maximum achieved by the DEVA with pressure tested handloads.

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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
#373387 - 22/01/23 06:16 AM

because they don't had the original 5780 mm long test barrel

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
#373394 - 22/01/23 08:42 AM

My 22" #1 7x57 ran the 140's at 2,940fps and shot 1/2" at 100 meters. 3 shot groups. The 4th shot would run an inch higher than the 'group', usually.
My 23.4" BRNO 7x57 ran 160gr. TSX's at 2,700fps, just over 1/2" for 3 shot groups at 100 meters. It was also quite consistent.
Just saying.

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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
#373410 - 22/01/23 11:46 PM

Quote:

because they don't had the original 5780 mm long test barrel

The DEVA has and used the original 26" DWM test barrel Gehmann used when he developed his proprietary cartridge and loads in the 1950s. When they checked a recent 7x66 SE factory load (post-DWM, 1980s) supplied by Gehmann (owner of the vom Hofe trademark), they got merely 3068 fps instead of the 3445 fps advertised by Gehmann on the package label. Pressure was just a modest 3050 bar instead of the CIP maximum 4400 bar.

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
#373414 - 23/01/23 04:59 AM

5,780mm - yeah - funny. 19 feet(rounded)

4,400 bar or 63,817psi - more of a modern pressure limit.
3050 bar, or 44,237 psi is quite low and explains the low vel.

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
#373416 - 23/01/23 05:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Personally I'm not a velocity fanatic. Most of my handholds, I picked for accuracy not the highest velocity. Usually the sweet spot is achieved several loads before too high pressure starts to appear.

I wonder if some handloaders sacrifice accuracy for higher velocities.

If one wanted great velocity, different choices than a 7x57, 7x64 etc. A 7 mm STW perhaps? I believe there is a 7mm Nosler?

classic would be 7 mm SE vom Hofe

I agree 100%.

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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373491 - 26/01/23 12:49 PM

Right then; for those of you that are interested, my restoration gunsmith/importer/good friend Steve Bertram www.bertramandco.com has come up with some original ".275 Bore Rigby Special High Velocity Rifle" cartridges.
When I get out of our "deep freeze' Winter here I will take my .275 Rigby Mauser out and test fire 3 shots over the LabRadar to tentatively settle the question of no kidding ".275 HV for Rigby" muzzle velocity in real life.

As soon as this is done I will certainly post the results.

Who wants to go in on a betting Calcutta as to actual average muzzle velocity?

(just kidding, too hard to deliver a bottle of Single Malt to the winner)

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
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tinker
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373492 - 26/01/23 02:20 PM

Very well Mike

I look forward to the field report

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373495 - 26/01/23 04:29 PM

Quote:

Right then; for those of you that are interested, my restoration gunsmith/importer/good friend Steve Bertram www.bertramandco.com has come up with some original ".275 Bore Rigby Special High Velocity Rifle" cartridges.
When I get out of our "deep freeze' Winter here I will take my .275 Rigby Mauser out and test fire 3 shots over the LabRadar to tentatively settle the question of no kidding ".275 HV for Rigby" muzzle velocity in real life.

As soon as this is done I will certainly post the results.

Who wants to go in on a betting Calcutta as to actual average muzzle velocity? (just kidding, too hard to deliver a bottle of Single Malt to the winner)

- Mike

My guess is a conservative 2650 fps MV. Before checking Kuduae's post above. After checking I see I am right on the the middle of an expected velocity range.

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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373497 - 26/01/23 06:40 PM

Not sure a session with the chronograph will take into account a century of deterioration of those early powders, and the associated drop in velocity, but still an interesting exercise for sure.

I'll guess 2725 fps, just to pick a number!
...provided you warm them up under your armpit first, Mike!

Pretty sure my local bottle-shop will take your credit-card over the phone, too.

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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
#373507 - 27/01/23 03:23 AM

Quote:

Not sure a session with the chronograph will take into account a century of deterioration of those early powders, and the associated drop in velocity, but still an interesting exercise for sure.

I'll guess 2725 fps, just to pick a number!
...provided you warm them up under your armpit first, Mike!

Pretty sure my local bottle-shop will take your credit-card over the phone, too.

Hi Tony,
Armpit eh? Considering it is -18°C this AM I believe that might get my attention!

As to the age of the ammo; yes, age could be a factor. “If” the box still has the Kynoch date code I will be able to narrow that down.
Since I have fired US made .30-06 from WWII and Korea era with normally expected results, I’m hoping the same if the ammo is later production.

Interesting experiment at any rate.

- Mike

--------------------
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
#373508 - 27/01/23 05:18 AM

Yes indeed, interesting "test".
2,695fps.

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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
#373509 - 27/01/23 08:18 AM

Yes would be interesting to date the Kynoch cartridges if the box is with them or Steve still has the original box.
Need both the date code and also if manufactured by ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) or IMI (Imperial Metal Industries). Kynoch repeated their dating codes and knowing if ICI or IMI can narrow down to which dating period the codes apply. Information on the front of the box such as if loaded with cordite or nitrocellulose also helps identify if earlier or later loaded ammo.

I'm not going to hazard a guess at the velocity other than definitely under 3000fps, I'll wait for the proven results.

Info needed as in example below.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
#373518 - 27/01/23 04:58 PM

Quote:

There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970.

Stoeger Catalog, 1939:

Full page image:

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: sharps4590]
#373520 - 27/01/23 05:05 PM

Quote:

It's more accurate than using "caliber" for "cartridge."

Absolutely.

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
#373525 - 27/01/23 08:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970.

Stoeger Catalog, 1939:

Full page image:

Excellent post and some evidence.

Bloody Americans getting it wrong! Ha ha. Joke.

But this Stoegers Catalogue of 1939 shows some evidence of where the nomenclature came from.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373571 - 28/01/23 09:26 PM

Quote:

Excellent post and some evidence.

Bloody Americans getting it wrong! Ha ha. Joke.

But this Stoegers Catalogue of 1939 shows some evidence of where the nomenclature came from.

Perhaps we 'bloody Americans' got it wrong twice?

The '.275 Rigby'/ 7mm Mauser 'High Velocity' designation reminds me of this:

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
#373576 - 29/01/23 02:32 AM

The 9.5x57 was known by both I believe. Or not?

Maybe these old USA catalogues reveal source of errors in naming?

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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373605 - 29/01/23 11:06 AM

Look, not meaning to be argumentative, but "errors"?
Really?

Manton's of Calcutta in 1925 and Stoegers of New York in 1939 are not going to use advertising nomenclature on which ultimately their sales and hence profits are dependent, unless that advertising is instantly recognizable to the vast majority of their potential customers.

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
#373608 - 29/01/23 03:26 PM

American consumers have long been more "brand" orientated.
For example Coco Cola, Winchester, Remington, Standard Oil etc.

".275 bore" is not a marketable brand.

".275 Rigby" is.

But so is "Rigby .275 bore".

Just semantics.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#373612 - 29/01/23 08:03 PM

Quote:

The 9.5x57 was known by both I believe. Or not?

Maybe these old USA catalogues reveal source of errors in naming?

The 9.5X57 MS has been marketed / referred to by several 'names' over the decades. Case, projectile, and overall dimensions of 9.5X57MS and .375RNE are identical.

Look at loading data from catalogs / references of the 1910s, 20s, 30s, however, and you'll notice that '9.5X57MS' and '.375RNE' have different powder loads and related ballistics.

Note the example previously posted (from an British ICI catalog) shows the MS with 45 grains Cordite, 43 grains for the RNE.

Other references:

Westley Richards, incidentally, also had their own 'express' variant:

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
#373613 - 29/01/23 08:51 PM

Quote:

maybe kynoch download the .275 rigby for the use in hot climate

That was, from what I've read, the (presumed) reason for .375RNE (Rimless Nitro Express) being loaded with 2 grains less Cordite than 9.5X57MS (Mannlicher Schoenauer) per British references of the pre WW2 period; the presumption being that the 9.5X57 was intended for use on the European continent, the RNE for Africa, India, and such.

Every pre WW2 British proofed M1910 MS that I have seen (including my own cased Take Down Model) is proofed at "CORDITE 43 - 270 Gr MAX", the load for RNE. The 9.5X57MS load was 45 grains with same 270 grain projectile.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
#373614 - 29/01/23 09:14 PM

Quote:

Image below showing labelling of the lid end of the same old Rigby ammo box with ammunition referred to as .275 Mauser not .275 Rigby. Pity cartridge head-stamps can't be seen to confirm exactly what nomenclature was applied to the ammunition. I'm betting most likely 7x57 or in keeping with the age, 7mm Mauser.

Or this, for the 'Rigby No. 2' double rifle:

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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
#373626 - 30/01/23 11:52 AM

That is a perfect example as the flanged Rigby No2 Magnum cartridge was developed by Rigby for double or single shot rifles, so the ammo is correctly head-stamped.
Would be good to see if there are any examples of old Kynoch ammo with a head-stamp of "Rigby .275", not just .275 Mauser or 7mm Mauser

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Huvius
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
#373628 - 30/01/23 12:13 PM

Regarding the 9.5MS vs. the Westley 375 Rimless, I wonder if the 375 Rimless charge of 43grs of Cordite could be a match to the European load of 45grs of flake powder?
My Mauser rifle is proofed at 43grs. Cordite, 270gr bullet, which is the same as the MS British proof marks just as Rothhammer1 notes above.

Also, I've read some thought that Kynoch loaded the MS load a little faster to get the imported MS rifles to shoot to the sights. That could be possible I guess as Kynoch wouldn't want the many English buyers of these rifles to be dissatisfied with the Kynoch ammunition.

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chuck375
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
#376656 - 12/05/23 07:56 AM

So please explain what the difference is between the 275 Rigby and the 7x57 Mauser?

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Huvius
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: chuck375]
#376657 - 12/05/23 10:57 AM

Quote:

So please explain what the difference is between the 275 Rigby and the 7x57 Mauser?

Case wise, dimensionally, there is no difference.
Brass, dies, etc. - all the same.
The “Rigby” moniker is derived from their specific loading of the same cartridge.
The 275 Rigby was loaded with a lighter bullet and higher velocity than the standard 7X57 Mauser.
What was it, 140gr. Bullet for the Rigby and 170 something for the standard Mauser cartridge?

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chuck375
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
#376658 - 12/05/23 12:08 PM

Thanks.

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LRF
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: chuck375]
#376663 - 12/05/23 08:54 PM

But "275 Rigby" just sounds way cooler then "7x57" which sounds more like the dimensions of the "Mo-Bile Home" many call home, unless your luck and have an "Extra wide"

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: LRF]
#376880 - 22/05/23 04:36 AM

That's what I thought lol.

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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
#376891 - 22/05/23 03:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So please explain what the difference is between the 275 Rigby and the 7x57 Mauser?

Case wise, dimensionally, there is no difference.
Brass, dies, etc. - all the same.
The “Rigby” moniker is derived from their specific loading of the same cartridge.
The 275 Rigby was loaded with a lighter bullet and higher velocity than the standard 7X57 Mauser.
What was it, 140gr. Bullet for the Rigby and 170 something for the standard Mauser cartridge?

According to some sources, anti-German sentiment also came into play when Rigby came up with their high velocity 140gr loading for the 7x57 or 7mm Mauser cartridge, their thinking was the name Rigby would be more palatable to the British stiff upper lip. Whether this was a factor or not who knows.

Apart from recent American loadings with a .275 Rigby headstamp on the cartridges to suit the vanity of some, original cartridges headstamped .275 Rigby seem to be non-existent or a rarity at least. Searches come up with plenty of old cartridge boxes labelled ".275 cartridges for the Rigby Rifle", or similar notation, but no images of the cartridges to prove there was actual ammunition produced with the definitive .275 Rigby headstamp.

In regards the heavier bullet loading for the 7x57/7mm Mauser/.275 cartridges, there is some confusion in this area too. Bell and Corbett were great exponents of the .275 cartridge in what ever moniker it may have been and in both their cases it is often said they used the 175gr bullet. Kynoch however used 173gr bullets in their heavy 7mm loading. Most of the German loadings were probably with the 175gr bullet but I would have thought Bell at least would have been using Kynoch ammunition. I think even he himself mentions somewhere in his writing his 7mm rifle ammunition with 175gr bullets.

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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
#376892 - 22/05/23 08:08 PM

Quote:

In regards the heavier bullet loading for the 7x57/7mm Mauser/.275 cartridges, there is some confusion in this area too. Bell and Corbett were great exponents of the .275 cartridge in what ever moniker it may have been and in both their cases it is often said they used the 175gr bullet. Kynoch however used 173gr bullets in their heavy 7mm loading. Most of the German loadings were probably with the 175gr bullet but I would have thought Bell at least would have been using Kynoch ammunition. I think even he himself mentions somewhere in his writing his 7mm rifle ammunition with 175gr bullets.

Bell at least wrote he used German DWM, Karlsruhe, “solids” exclusively in his 7x57/ .275 Rigby elephant rifle that “was never polluted with a soft nose bullet”. DWM listed this old load with a 11.2 g = 173 gr bullet and 2,4 g = 37 gr R5 powder for a mv of 700 m/s = 2300 fps from a 65 cm = 25.6” barrel.

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#378672 - 16/08/23 12:36 AM

Quote:

Rifles engraved as Rigby .275 Bore, effectively the same thing.

What does Kynoch ammo boxes say?

If the British learned anything it should say ".275 Boer".

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
#378674 - 16/08/23 12:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970. . . .

Bloody Americans getting it wrong! Ha ha. Joke.

But this Stoegers Catalogue of 1939 shows some evidence of where the nomenclature came from.

Not so fast. Who mis-labeled it from metric in the first place? ;^]

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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
#378675 - 16/08/23 01:15 AM

I re-barreled a Persian/Brno action that came to me as a $300 8mm stutzen with Timmey trigger and Lyman sight, changed it to 24" barrel. .

I stumbled upon a $20 used stock with Prince of Wales grip that looked vaguely Corbett so I'm working down the forearm and will solder on a barrel swivel stud.

But in my American ignorance I confused ".275 Rigby" with ".257 Roberts".

So no tiger hunting for me and my $320 rifle. I'll look pretty silly hunting mule deer in my pith helmet.

This thread is the only valid argument I have heard in favor of the metric system.

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DORLEAC
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: JHeath]
#378676 - 16/08/23 02:06 AM

Almost all of the .275 RIGBY barrelled action rifles left Oberndorf as standard in the white 7x57 Mauser, the majority on intermediate length systems.
All those that have passed through my hands bore the Mauser factory serial number as well as the normal Oberndorf proof stamps for the 7x57 round.
It is certain that RIGBY had a commercial interest in baptising the initial cartridge in .275 Rigby in order to escape the anti-Germanic feeling of the time.
Note however that the twist rate remained the standard 1/8.66" designed to stabilise the 173 grain bullet.
There were also at the time several lighter loads, even military, such as the 139 grain for Brazil, the 140 grain for the Chilean Mauser 1912, the 142 grain for Uruguay or the 155 grain for Mexico.
So nothing new under the sun except for a nice commercial success that still lasts today.
The fact remains that the 7x57 Mauser is a fabulous cartridge, very balanced and superbly efficient.

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NitroX
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DORLEAC]
#378677 - 16/08/23 02:12 AM

Quote:

The fact remains that the 7x57 Mauser is a fabulous cartridge, very balanced and superbly efficient.

A classic remains a classic.

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