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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: Daryl_S]
      #272097 - 25/10/15 05:00 AM

Quote:

It likes those solids.




Yes seems to. My Uncle gave me a box of 500 of them, and that is what he used, so will shoot them through it first.

Sighting it in at 50 metres was hoping to put all three shots in a half inch white sticker used as an aiming point but I think my shooting was amiss. During sighting in, looked like it could do it quite well when setting the scope to point of aim.

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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: Daryl_S]
      #272103 - 25/10/15 06:44 AM

NitroX, your grandfather's .22 is a rare Mauser model Mm 410 Light Sporter, made about 1925 – 1930. Distinguishable from the Mm 420 Target/Sporter by the lighter and shorter 60 cm barrel and the front sling swivel soldered on the barrel. See Jon Speed's "Mauser Smallbores" book, page 19.

The enigmatic number 459 is found on all Mauser, Oberndorf .22 barrels up to 1945. Even Jon did not know the meaning until we found it in the German 1895 proof table: It was the gauge number for .22 barrels. These gauge numbers went out of proofhouse use on rifles in 1912. For reasons unknown the Mauser factory continued to mark them on their rifle barrels, besides the mm designations. See Jon Speed's "Mauser Archive" book, page 213.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #272121 - 25/10/15 05:42 PM

Thanks Kuduae, very informative as always.

I now wonder if I should 'restore' it? Sand down and refinish, the stock, rechecker, and an oil stock. Reblue the metal work.

I would also add a gold disk or 'escutcheon' (?) to the bottom of the butt stock with my grandfather's initials which are the same as mine "JH".

Anyone with any comments on a restoration, pluses or minuses would be helpful.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: NitroX]
      #272146 - 26/10/15 01:00 AM

It's your rifle and you can do what you want. If it were mine, I would refrain from "restoring " it to "as new" condition, reblueing and heavy sanding of the stock. It's an old gun, showing it's (family-) history. I would diassemble the rifle and clean the metal parts of rust and gunk, using WD40 and fine steel wool. The stock wood doesn't look so bad at all. I would merely clean it with water and some detergent. Oven cleaner spray is usually doing a good job here. Again, use fine steel wool on the smooth parts and a toothbrush to clean the checkering. Let it dry thoroughly. Then apply some linseed or other good stock oil. Keep the oil out of the checkering. Reassemble. That's all I would do.
But, I would mount a more period 2 1/2x 7/8" scope with more period mounts. Such scopes may be found on ebay or German egun for modest prices. I may try to find you such things, if you want.


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dons
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #272148 - 26/10/15 01:24 AM

Would agree with Axel on this one. Remember, this is a rather rare Mauser and a restoration as you describe would only destroy it's value.

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mckinney
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: dons]
      #272153 - 26/10/15 01:58 AM

+1

These are sweet little rifles, much harder to find than the MM410-B. I would say they are about as hard to find as the MS350B, possibly harder. They feel great in the hand and I really like the pre-B action.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #272157 - 26/10/15 02:56 AM

Quote:

But, I would mount a more period 2 1/2x 7/8" scope with more period mounts. Such scopes may be found on ebay or German egun for modest prices. I may try to find you such things, if you want.




I think I might take you up on this generous offer to help source something suitable. If you see something for sale please let me know, and perhaps assist with the re-posting to Australia. Reimbursement for any costs of course.

My main provision is the scope and mounts need to work as intended, as the rifle will be a user rifle in my hands.

The Leupold scope might be kept for use anyway, or find a new home on my Anschutz .22 which needs a smaller scope to better fit the tiny rifle. In any case after trying out the Leupold I already had in mind a second for the Anschutz.

Thanks for your comments regarding a possible alternative to restoration which to me sounds just as good. One reason for my query was whether a restoration as outlined would affect its value.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: NitroX]
      #272158 - 26/10/15 02:58 AM

Thanks Gentlemen for your comments on the rifle and the merits or not of a restoration. I will certainly not be doing what I mentioned now and instead look to Kuduae's suggestions.

Just out of interest, what would be the market value of this rifle, in its condition? I have no intention of selling, and someone will probably get it in my will one day instead.

Its cool my Grandfather purchased a quality .22 in the day, he was a keen hunter and won three times in a row the "King of the Hunt" award at the annual "Stockwell Hunt Club" hunt weekend. Which was a shoot of foxes, hares and rabbits, shot during drives of the participants on the King's Birthday long weekend each year. I have a few dozen old photographs of the shoots and dinner celebrations and also somewhere an article I wrote which was published in an Australian hunting yearbook magazine some time ago. Must see if I can find the pdf or a copy of the magazine for the forums. Of course shotguns were used in the drives, not rifles. My grandfather's shotgun was I believe a "Stevens" side by side with hammers. I also have this shotgun now, minus one lost/damagaed hammer which needs to be found by my Uncle and then that shotgun can also be restored to use.

Also have my grandfather's quite aweful and rusted .410 single barrel shotgun, which is probably not usuable anymore. Will display that on NE too, just to see if it is unusual as it might be junk now.

My father still has my grandfather's .410 side by side shotgun, which I had repaired for mechanical faults. It is the gun I learned to shoot with. And while very tighly choked is quite nice to shoot.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: NitroX]
      #272207 - 27/10/15 04:28 AM

John, just to clarify what I meant with "more period scopes": Such small, 22 mm = 7/8" tube scopes were often used in Germany on upgrade .22 rifles from the 1920s to the 1960s. Cheap .22s were more often mounted post-war with cheaper ¾" tube scopes. During the 1960s – 70s these traditional German scopes and their makers were pushed out of the market by cheaper imports from Japan. Now, they are getting scarce, even more so their steel mounts with windage adjustment by opposing screws at the rear ring. For many years now I bought such scopes and mounts if the price was reasonable, just in case I need one. All are 22 mm steel tubes. All except one have the German standard #1 three post reticle and internal adjustment for elevation only.
For size comparision I mounted them on my .22 Mauser single shot, as this rifle has essentially the same receiver as your Mm410. (The rifle is a mix, a Es340 barreled action in an Es350 Championship Rifle stock, but that's another story)

1920s 4x W.Gerard "G". Originally an "universal" hunting rifle scope. This is the one rgularly mounted on my Mauser .22



OIGEE "Landlicht 2 1/4 x Centrum-K", a typical 1920s – 30s small bore scope. Pointed post only reticle.



Zeiss "Zielklein" 2 1/4 x. Hard to find and most often more expensive, about Euro 150.- to 200.-. often mounted on full bore hunting rifles in America and Britain. You pay for the "Name" too.



Two post-WW2 scopes, still very similar in shape to the pre-war ones:
A variable Bischoff, Brunswick, "Dinox" 2 – 4x. The only one with both windage and elevation internal ajustments.



Two sides of a post-war 2 ½ x 18. Made in the 1960s for the trade by Schmidt & Bender. In dimensions and shape a close copy of the pre-war 2 ½ x Hensoldt "Ziel – Dialyt", just the elevation turret is different. Optically maybe the best of the bunch because of coated lenses.





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lancaster
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #272211 - 27/10/15 05:17 AM

nice collection of such small scopes!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: lancaster]
      #272212 - 27/10/15 06:33 AM

Small scopes?
Even smaller: a pre-war W.&H. Seibert, Wetzlar, "Jaguar Sport 2x". Tube diameter 20 mm, length 19.4 cm = 7.6"



The smallest of them all: 1960s Hensoldt, Wetzlar, Diapi 1.5x7.5. Tube diam. 14 mm = .55", length 13.7 cm = 5.4"



This was a short-lived rule breaker, designed for small bore target shooting. The then German rules prohibited the use of scopes, but allowed elderly shooters to use "optical aiming aids", provided these did not exceed 2x magnification and certain dimensions. So Hensoldt designed this "non-scope" for cheating. Soon the rules were changed, hence these things are quite rare now.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #272216 - 27/10/15 07:07 AM

John - with that .410 - if you shoot the 2 1/2" instead of the 3", you should find better patterns right off the bat.

Reaming the chokes to modified or having that done will also improve patterns over the orignal full chokes. for a 30/35 yard gun, full choke is normally too tight for such a long shot column and low shot charge weight which combine to give a definte limited range. This, along with the reduction to the 1/2 ounce load which does pattern more evenly, will give you a full 30 to 35yard killing gun depending on the quarry size.

3" (11/16oz?) shells and full choke usually makes for a killer to 25 yards due only to the extreme pattern density in the inside 10" (if you are accurate enough) of the pattern and a horrid wounder of birds beyond that due to the rapidly thinning pattern.
The thin, sporadic outer pattern is caused by bore abrasion of the extra-long shot column through the tight choke. This, coupled with a horrendously long shot cloud (strung out cloud), makes for hitting flying birds a difficult time indeed, especially if they are not on top of you.

The shorter shot cloud of the 1/2 ounce load, coupled with slightly relieved chokes benefits this little "pelter" in evening up the pattern and including in that pattern, pellets that normally would have been fliers.

Something else that patterns well in them, is a .444 Marlin case, 12 gr. of Unique or Herco, .410 wad, 1/2opunce of shot and the fingers cut off just below the case mouth. Place a .44 mag. gas check on top of the shot column and crimp it with either a .44 mag or .444 Marlin crimp die.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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chapmen
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: Daryl_S]
      #272293 - 29/10/15 04:30 AM

An early Ms420 sporter with date 1924 from my collection:



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303British
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: Daryl_S]
      #272332 - 29/10/15 08:46 PM

Very nice John, very nice. Mine doesn't have the dovetail on the receiver. Must be a slightly earlier build going by serial numbers mine is a little older. 41982 is my serial number. I wish it did have a rail that would have meant that whoever owned it before me wouldn't have had it drilled and tapped. SIGH.

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Arte et Marte


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: 303British]
      #277315 - 30/01/16 04:46 AM

Sat outside in my backyard at dawn last Sunday and the little Mauser accounted for about nine bunnies. Five from the paddock near the house. Just sat there and shot them when they came out to play. Then decided to walk over the creek to the vineyards where there are a gazillion rabbits at the moment. Another handfull. Mostly from the headlands. But missed a few too. The .22 is not effective enough at longer ranges in the rows. The .222 shines here and is safer to as the RF tends to ricochet too much.

Five of the bunnies went into the freezer and one into Blitzen's stomach.

One magically disappeared. Shot in in the head in the paddock. I didn't disturb the paddocks as I just sat in the backyard waiting for more to appear while listening to an audiobook. Later when retrieving them, absolutely no sigb of it??? Perhaps a very sneaky fox picked it up???

I have a plague of rabbits in the vineyards at the moment, but it rained that last couple of days after a long long drought. When it heats up again, the fleas and mosquitos will breed up and the disease I suspect will knock them back. Most I have killed this summer have had few fleas, but the last couple were crawling with them.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: NitroX]
      #277316 - 30/01/16 04:48 AM

Kuduae! (Corrected from Lancaster) kindly sent to me a couple of older scopes. Which I paid for. Haven't fitted the period scope yet to the Masuer. The 7x modern scope has been too useful so far for now. Will have to get my Anschutz .22 RF out and working again,so I can make the scope change.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (09/08/22 06:42 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: NitroX]
      #277338 - 30/01/16 09:55 AM

Quote:

Lancaster kindly sent to me a couple of older scopes.



Not Lancaster, but kuduae.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #277345 - 30/01/16 03:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Lancaster kindly sent to me a couple of older scopes.



Not Lancaster, but kuduae.




Oops sorry, many apologies.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: NitroX]
      #368226 - 09/08/22 06:43 PM

Bttt

I've got to post new photos.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: Daryl_S]
      #368231 - 09/08/22 07:52 PM

Quote:

I believe the model is listed as "459" ???



No. “459” was a gauge number, lead balls to the imperial pound, according to the 1895 proof table supplement. See Jon Speed’s “Mauser Archive” book, page 213. It stands for a bore/land diameter of the barrel between 5.5 mm = .217” and 5.75 mm = .226”. Although the gauge numbers went out of German use in 1912, replaced by mm numbers, The Mauser factory continued to mark them additionally until WW2, reasons unknown.
Ooops, already posted this info above, seven years ago!

Edited by kuduae (10/08/22 04:01 AM)


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CharlesHunter
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: Daryl_S]
      #368273 - 12/08/22 12:35 PM

HI John send me a picture of the shotgun hammer as I may have something that could work for you (no promises just a maybe). I also have a box of rimfire ammo that came with a similar Mauser, can't tell you the brand offhand but it is European and contemporary with the rifle. I need to get it out of my ammo collection and will take a few pictures, which may be a few weeks as reorganising the gunroom and currently buried. You are welcome to have the box/ammo should it be of any interest to you.

Steve


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: kuduae]
      #368274 - 12/08/22 02:57 PM

Kuduae, your wisdom on a previous post revealed the correct model. Now the 459 explained. Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: CharlesHunter]
      #368275 - 12/08/22 03:03 PM

Thanks CH.

MY Uncle is 97. Found the hammer, forgot about it again! I have to try again. It might be broken. I have no idea.

So thanks. If you have one the same? Wunderbar! Otherwise I will have to see if I can get one made for me one day.

The ammo? When you find it, we'll see. Thanks very much. Might make a nice accompanying display item.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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CharlesHunter
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: CharlesHunter]
      #369032 - 07/09/22 08:18 PM

Quote:

HI John send me a picture of the shotgun hammer as I may have something that could work for you (no promises just a maybe). I also have a box of rimfire ammo that came with a similar Mauser, can't tell you the brand offhand but it is European and contemporary with the rifle. I need to get it out of my ammo collection and will take a few pictures, which may be a few weeks as reorganising the gunroom and currently buried. You are welcome to have the box/ammo should it be of any interest to you.

Steve




Got around to getting that box of ammo out that came with a Mauser rimfire years ago. Yours if you want it John.


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kuduae
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Re: Grandfather's .22 [Re: CharlesHunter]
      #369036 - 07/09/22 09:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I also have a box of rimfire ammo that came with a similar Mauser, can't tell you the brand offhand but it is European and contemporary with the rifle.



Polte-Werke, Magdeburg, Germany, 1920s


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