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NitroXAdministrator
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This case is inherently accurate
      #368085 - 01/08/22 12:45 AM

Bullshit! They all are!

Can anyone tell me which modern case is inherently inaccurate?

Buy this latest and bestest magnum belted case, very accurate. This rimless magnum, accurate. This short straight walled rimless magnum. Designed for accuracy. This creedmoor, wonderful accuracy. This whatsitnewfucka case, designed for accuracy ...

No they are ALL accurate. The brass case designs matter little. Or do they ?

I have a .375 which shot one-third MOA 3 shot groups with RWS 300 gr KS ammo. My .222 shot single bullet hole 3 shot groups at 100 metres with handload. Could shoot several different loads all within one MOA. My .30-06 is half MOA. MY 6.5x55 is sub MOA using factory FMJs. Even my .308 BLR can shoot sub MOA.

The old .22 Hornet can even shoot well. I am sure the .303 and Nitro Express cartridges can as well.

BUT it does depend heavily on good bullets. Consistency. Consistency of ammunition loading. Load development for that accurate sweet spot. AND good barrels. The right twist for weight and length. Decent rifle design.

None of my barrels are heavy. Some are whippy light. They still produce superb accuracy. I note I shoot 3vshot hunting groups. Five and ten shot groups might be very different.

I contend, for hunting accuracy, the case design matters Ffff all. Its other factors almost entirely. The talk about a case being inherently accurate is just "sell you a new rifle" sales mumbo jumbo jargon.


What do you think? Opinions? Is some case "inherently inaccurate"? Another inherently accurate? Why? What design features make it accurate?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: NitroX]
      #368089 - 01/08/22 02:25 AM

John,

I believe you raise a good point. Probably everyone has an opinion.

I believe that your comments about the actual case are absolutely correct. I think that attributes such as barrel harrmonics, smoothness, twist rate, quality of chambering, action stiffnedd, stock design, mating of barrel to action, sights, trigger, shooter, bench system, bullet selection, propellant, quality of case preparation and loading affect accuracy more than the actual case.

I would thing that a high end rifle manufacturer could build an extremely accurate rifle using virtually any case, provided that the ammunitin is prepared and loaded like match ammunition. If the case is either belted or rimmed, the rifle can be chambered so that the case seats pn the shoulder, minimizing any variations in rim or belt.

Now, there may be some cases that are easier to wring out accuracy.

Now, that being said, if we look at the combination of rifle, case, and available ammunition as a system identified by a case, then there are more accurate cases. The 6.5 Creedmore may be one. I beilve that what we look at is the overall rifle and cartridge system.

Any comments?

--------------------
RB


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: 85lc]
      #368090 - 01/08/22 06:22 AM

85lc, my thoughts exactly!
If you look at everything, including the shooter, not just the cartridge with all aspects done as consistently as possible, then accuracy will naturally increase.
Look at the old .303, some rifles were far more accurate than others, even the likes of the p14's were tweaked to get the best out of them & they were good to start with!
The little 6.5x55, given its diet of normal 'military' ammunition which was of match quality back over 100 years ago was a deadly performer in the field.
True we understand internal ballistics a lot better than we did even 20 years ago, cartridges can now be designed around a certain powder & bullet with pressure & case size taken into consideration as well to be the most efficient size wise. Sure the latest & greatest are most probably more accurate than their predecessors, but this is due to better technology!
Are they more inherently accurate, that would be an impossible challenge as all cartridges are designed around different parameters, true some will be better than others in some fields like long range, but what we should be saying is that for the date that a certain cartridge is brought out, yes it is inherently accurate- for the technology of the time.
As to worrying about how good it is, in 10 years time there will be something even better yet than what we got now & the 'latest & greatest' guys will be flocking to it instead of the 6.5 Creedmoor which seems to be the flavour of the month!
I like what I like, my rifle & its cartridge does the job that it was built to do, it can still bring home the bacon so to speak, as to being the latest & greatest, sure it might have been generations long past, but frankly I don't give a hoot!
I get all my fun with reloading, just to see if you can 'tweak' it just that little bit better than what those other guys did when it was first out!


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: 93x64mm]
      #368091 - 01/08/22 07:32 AM

577/450 Martini foil case.

Wait, ogee shoulder of inconsistent radii and location, chamber with no neck or true throat in a bore that doesn't really have lands and groove and what it does have tapers from is a major diameter 468/.470 at breech to .464, 8 inches up the barrel and minor diameter .450 all the way.

Maybe you are right John.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: DoubleD]
      #368092 - 01/08/22 10:20 AM

That's one thing I've noticed, all modern rifles are accurate, not because of any particular round but because of modern machinery.
Old guns can be a bit more picky but with playing with load development any gun can be more then accurate enough.
New bullets, powders and reloading dies can make anything that isn't shot out as good as anything made these days.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.


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Rule303
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: 260rem]
      #368096 - 01/08/22 08:52 PM

I tend to agree with every thing that has been said. As to a case being more accurate than another, this maybe the case. No pun intended. What I mean is that one case design might produce a better and more even burn rate, primer flash hole size etc. What sort of difference at the target this makes may be measurable and it might not.

I know that with my 6.8SPC the Rem case with large primers and flash holes are definitely not as accurate as the Hornady cases with the small primers and small flash holes ( this was tested with several different bullets and 2 powders). Would this be the case in a different 6.8SPC rifle or a different cartridge, I have no idea.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: 85lc]
      #368098 - 02/08/22 05:44 AM

Quote:

John,

I believe you raise a good point. Probably everyone has an opinion.

I believe that your comments about the actual case are absolutely correct. I think that attributes such as barrel harrmonics, smoothness, twist rate, quality of chambering, action stiffnedd, stock design, mating of barrel to action, sights, trigger, shooter, bench system, bullet selection, propellant, quality of case preparation and loading affect accuracy more than the actual case.

I would thing that a high end rifle manufacturer could build an extremely accurate rifle using virtually any case, provided that the ammunitin is prepared and loaded like match ammunition. If the case is either belted or rimmed, the rifle can be chambered so that the case seats pn the shoulder, minimizing any variations in rim or belt.

Now, there may be some cases that are easier to wring out accuracy.

Now, that being said, if we look at the combination of rifle, case, and available ammunition as a system identified by a case, then there are more accurate cases. The 6.5 Creedmore may be one. I beilve that what we look at is the overall rifle and cartridge system.

Any comments?



-
I Agree with most stated.. IT all adds up.. "Barrel harrmonics, smoothness, twist rate, quality of chambering, action stiffnedd, stock design, mating of barrel to action, sights, trigger, shooter, bench system, bullet selection, propellant, quality of case preparation and loading affect accuracy more than the actual case"

I do believe case design does also add to accuracy.. belted vs non.. degree of shoulder, length of neck, circumference of case to length, etc.. I remember people hand wringing for years because the 300Win's neck was "technically too short".. IS that NOT case design? Also remember when the "SHORT" magnums came to be, how it was stated this provided a more uniformed column burn within the case..IS this not case design?? If it doesn't matter then why has this short fat case turned in such incredible accuracy for a very long time. Namely the 6.5GAP 4S..

To many examples proving case design does matter..


Some calibers are just super easy to load for and get to shoot accurately.. is it just case design? Maybe not "just".. but it certainly helps..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: Ripp]
      #368118 - 04/08/22 05:21 AM

In Praise of the .300 Winchester Magnum..

The 50-plus-year-old .300 Win Mag remains one of the world’s best long-range rounds, capable of uncanny accuracy in the field and elsewhere

BY DAVID E. PETZAL | PUBLISHED FEB 9, 2021 10:57 PM


https://www.fieldandstream.com/in-praise...ZkRmwKa1Qyzjr28

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: Ripp]
      #368143 - 06/08/22 12:19 PM

The 6 GT Is a New Top Cartridge in the Precision Rifle World

Even for hunters and shooters who don’t follow precision rifle trends, the end result might be a versatile general-purpose round for predators, varmints, and medium-sized game

BY JOHN B. SNOW | PUBLISHED

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/guns/the-6gt-is-a-new-top-cartridge-in-the-precision-rifle-world/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: 260rem]
      #368148 - 07/08/22 12:53 AM

Quote:


Old guns can be a bit more picky but with playing with load development any gun can be more then accurate enough.
New bullets, powders and reloading dies can make anything that isn't shot out as good as anything made these days.




Older guns can be lesser accurate for all sorts of reasons as we know. Firstly wear. Throat or muzzle. Worn rifling. Putting and corrosion. Different free bore, possibly excessive. Differing bore calibrescthan the "standard". Same for chamber dimensions.

Modern rifles are made to greater standardisation.

Accuracy imo is a great factor of uniformity. In every aspect. Bullets, brass, powder charge and composition, primer. Plus the rifle design, chamber, obviously the barrel and bullet are huge factors.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: Ripp]
      #368149 - 07/08/22 01:16 AM

Quote:



I do believe case design does also add to accuracy.. belted vs non.. degree of shoulder, length of neck, circumference of case to length, etc.. I remember people hand wringing for years because the 300Win's neck was "technically too short".. IS that NOT case design? Also remember when the "SHORT" magnums came to be, how it was stated this provided a more uniformed column burn within the case..IS this not case design?? If it doesn't matter then why has this short fat case turned in such incredible accuracy for a very long time. Namely the 6.5GAP 4S..

To many examples proving case design does matter..


Some calibers are just super easy to load for and get to shoot accurately.. is it just case design? Maybe not "just".. but it certainly helps..




But are these factors real or just stated ie for case design. Other cases with other design perform just as well.

The neck length of the .300 Win Mag was no doubt a criticism when using long bullets. It is a case defect. But is the .300 Win Mag any less accurate? Say with 180 or 190 gr projectiles.

By case design my .375 H&H Magnum should be inaccurate. But 300 gr KS RWS factory ammo shoots tiny one hole groups. Admittedly 3 shot hunting groups only. A 10 shot group might be different. The rifle has a thin whippy barrel. A heavy barrel is much better for shooting more round groups accurately. But that is the barrel, not the case design.

I'm not a paper shooter so just opinion. But to me if the case and primer burns the chosen powder equally well, every time, and the case can handle the chosen bullet properly, that is only the factors relevant to case design.

Straight body walled cases were heavily marketed more for reducing case length while maintaing capacity and velocity. For shorter action rifles. Not for accuracy. Personally I dislike stuck cases. A tapered case design is better for hot humid hunting conditions in my opinion.

Shorter actions may have less flex which might improve accuracy. JMOs. If I shot competitively I might change my opinions considerably? For longer range shooting my 6.5x55 needs a better scope. Fixed 6x Swarovski currently. Adjustable turrents and greater magnification might be beneficial.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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cooch
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: NitroX]
      #368168 - 08/08/22 12:09 AM

Count me among the sceptics on this subject.

When accuracy depends on so many factors other than the case design, it is quite contrary to the definition of “inherent” to claim that accuracy is “inherent” to the calibre or case design.

None of you will deny that the “best” case designs will not produce accuracy when fired in a poorly-designed, built and maintained firearm. .... ergo, accuracy is not “built in” to the cartridge itself.

Marketing hype....

Peter.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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85lc
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: cooch]
      #368174 - 08/08/22 02:27 AM

When we discuss accuracy, perhaps we should talk about whether the discussion is paper punching or hunting, what level of accuracy is needed, and at what range.

As an example, for most people who hunt, perhaps a group of 0.20” verses a group of 1.0” at 200 yds is immaterial. In the field, we cannot hold a rifle that well to shoot very a 0.20” group at 200 yds.

While I enjoy people’s discussion of accuracy of various rifle/cartridge combinations, some of the discussion seems to be more be more theorical than practical, at least for a hunter. For a bench rest and long range shooter, these discussions are very important.

One point that both 260 rem and John made is that “all modern rifles are accurate, not because of any particular round but because of modern machinery.”

--------------------
RB


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cooch
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Re: This case is inherently accurate [Re: 85lc]
      #368179 - 08/08/22 06:59 AM

RB...

.... and the increased level of accuracy in current production rifles using older cartridges only goes to prove the point.

Having used a target rifle and a rusty K98 in the same .308 calibre that shooting journalists of the day were describing as “inherently accurate”..... I have first-hand experience of the failure of a specific case/calibre to provide “inherent accuracy”.

As an aside, recalling how every reviewed rifle was assessed both “out of the box” and after bedding, floating and a trigger tune, it is a pleasure to be able to purchase a sub-MOA rifle off-the-shelf at affordable prices .

Peter.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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