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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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wkudu
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Reged: 24/12/17
Posts: 55
Loc: United States
Red Dot Sights
      #368013 - 29/07/22 12:19 PM

Hey guys I need some advice.

My dad wants to try red dot sights on his 450/400 Tembo. 350gr about 2300-2450 so recoil is around 450/400NE ish.

Any suggestions on models and manufacturers that will hold up well?


Thanks,
Will

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Igorrock
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: wkudu]
      #368018 - 29/07/22 01:59 PM

AIMPOINT. Any model.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Igorrock]
      #368020 - 29/07/22 03:41 PM

Aimpoint or Burris Fastfire or Leica Tempus

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Hunter4752001
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #368026 - 29/07/22 04:34 PM

Kahles Helia

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93x64mm
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #368032 - 30/07/22 06:53 AM

Quote:

Kahles Helia



I have one that is on a QD mount on my Merkel 140AE in 450-400.
Does a great job, but had to have the knurled knob type, screw on/off as limited in space on ribs between the barrels. Mine is a Recknagel 4735-0123
You can get various mounting arrangements, but it has the same 'footprint' as the Noblex/Docter Red Dot.
Great units

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eagle27
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: 93x64mm]
      #368034 - 30/07/22 08:39 AM

As opposed to scopes on heavier kickers, so called red dot sights are usually small and light with not a lot in them so even the cheaper versions will stand up to recoil. I would firstly go with a cheap version just to see if a red dot sight suits your father.

Years ago I mounted and used one of the original red dot sights, an occluded eye Single Point, on my 404J. I found it worked well for fast shooting but a pain for deliberate shooting such as shooting on targets or a deliberate shot on an animal. I swapped out the Single Point for a 2x20 Leupold EER scope which I find much easier and effective to use.

I have used a later style red dot sight on another person rifle after he was having problems getting it sighted in. It was quite good although I couldn't see any advantage over a good low powered scope.

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wkudu
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: eagle27]
      #368072 - 31/07/22 12:41 PM

Thanks for the help my friends

Im also about to chrony the ammo that came with the rifle and find out just how fast the rimmed Tembo runs

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Rule303
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: eagle27]
      #368079 - 31/07/22 05:07 PM

Quote:

As opposed to scopes on heavier kickers, so called red dot sights are usually small and light with not a lot in them so even the cheaper versions will stand up to recoil.





Bad advice in my opinion. Cheap red dot sights have a habit of stuffing up. Some you have to hunt around to find the dot. Known quite a few to do this. Aimpoint is the brand others try to emulate. I have had them for years and not one has let go. Buy a good brand. Pay once, cry once.

As Eagle did say, try and have your dad check out a few to see if he likes them.

Edited by Rule303 (31/07/22 05:09 PM)

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260rem
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Rule303]
      #368082 - 31/07/22 05:47 PM

I tried a few, but the only one I really like is the Kahles, the standby feature is really good and it hasn't failed to switch on any time I've brought the gun to the shoulder.

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: 260rem]
      #368101 - 02/08/22 11:15 PM

I have 2 of the Leopold models mounted on 2 different double rifles (a .303 and a 375 2 1/2”) plus a 416 Rigby bolt rifle. Inside 100 yards I actually like them better than a scope. JJ Perodeau made new rear sites for all of them with a small grove on the side. He drifted the original rear site out and reinstalled his rear site and then mounted the red dot. This keeps the rifle all original with no modifications, a very clean set up (and allows my old eyes to still enjoy my doubles).
Hope that helps,
Robert

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #368130 - 05/08/22 12:13 AM

Quote:

I have 2 of the Leopold models mounted on 2 different double rifles (a .303 and a 375 2 1/2”) plus a 416 Rigby bolt rifle. Inside 100 yards I actually like them better than a scope. JJ Perodeau made new rear sites for all of them with a small grove on the side. He drifted the original rear site out and reinstalled his rear site and then mounted the red dot. This keeps the rifle all original with no modifications, a very clean set up (and allows my old eyes to still enjoy my doubles).
Hope that helps,
Robert



I read that before. Very good idea.

--------------------
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Hunter4752001
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #368133 - 05/08/22 09:45 AM

I really like red dot sights, and also appreciate how their small profile complement the lines of a double.

However I have one point of caution. A couple of months back during a club shoot, one of the blokes was using a double fitted with an Aimpoint H2. He threw it to the shoulder and it suddenly stopped working. Somewhat of a hassle at the range and he had to retire from that event. OK, no big deal. But what if you were after dangerous game, or rather dangerous game had decide to go after you?

Generally when a rifle mounted red dot sight fails there's no immediate back up sight and in any event the reason you went to a red dot may have been that your eyes could no longer reliably pick up iron sights. To me this tips the choice of optics towards the quality low power scopes that feature both cross hairs and an illuminated reticle of some description eg Leupold Firedot etc. If the electronics fail you still have the crosshairs. Might be bulkier than a holographic red dot but covers your a*** if Murphy intervenes.

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Rule303
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #368135 - 05/08/22 10:23 AM

Quote:

I really like red dot sights, and also appreciate how their small profile complement the lines of a double.

However I have one point of caution. A couple of months back during a club shoot, one of the blokes was using a double fitted with an Aimpoint H2. He threw it to the shoulder and it suddenly stopped working. Somewhat of a hassle at the range and he had to retire from that event. OK, no big deal. But what if you were after dangerous game, or rather dangerous game had decide to go after you?

Generally when a rifle mounted red dot sight fails there's no immediate back up sight and in any event the reason you went to a red dot may have been that your eyes could no longer reliably pick up iron sights. To me this tips the choice of optics towards the quality low power scopes that feature both cross hairs and an illuminated reticle of some description eg Leupold Firedot etc. If the electronics fail you still have the crosshairs. Might be bulkier than a holographic red dot but covers your a*** if Murphy intervenes.



I have had 1 scope where the cross hairs broke and two others where the cross hairs moved. No method is more reliable than another. Though having both in one should cover both bases. I'll stick with my Aimpoints, Zeiss, Kahles, Nightforce and Trijacon(Best of both worlds) scopes.

My 416 Rigby has an Aimpoint on it backed up with a Trijacon 1.24-4 if I need magnification.

Edited by Rule303 (05/08/22 10:27 AM)

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Rule303]
      #368136 - 05/08/22 12:10 PM

The only “fool proof” system is one standing fixed site. Everything else is prone to failure (scope , red dot , etc.). Might also add a well made “peep site” ? But, most of us shoot better with some type of scope or red dot . Buy the best you can afford and lots of practice.
Just my 2 cents
Robert

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degoins
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #368138 - 05/08/22 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have 2 of the Leopold models mounted on 2 different double rifles (a .303 and a 375 2 1/2”) plus a 416 Rigby bolt rifle. Inside 100 yards I actually like them better than a scope. JJ Perodeau made new rear sites for all of them with a small grove on the side. He drifted the original rear site out and reinstalled his rear site and then mounted the red dot. This keeps the rifle all original with no modifications, a very clean set up (and allows my old eyes to still enjoy my doubles).
Hope that helps,
Robert



I read that before. Very good idea.




I'd like to see a picture of this set up if you dont mind.

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: degoins]
      #368139 - 06/08/22 06:52 AM

Degoins , If someone will post the pics I will be glad to email them. I’ve never had much luck with pictures. Sorry
Robert
(Just PM me)

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Rolf
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #368879 - 02/09/22 06:03 AM

Gentlemen,

I sometimes shoot a single shot falling block rifle (system by Mr. M. Hagn/Canada, rifle finished by Mr. Heuberg, Germany).

The rifle has an Aimpoint H34L (2MOA dot) fixed with two detachable mounting rings.

After 57 shots with factory and handloaded ammunition the Aimpoint is still in place and functioning.
Recoil is somewhat reduced by use of a removable muzzle brake, but my skill set is still lacking, so I cannot show paper targets with tight 5-shot groups...

best regards
Rolf

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Postman
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Rolf]
      #368881 - 02/09/22 06:17 AM

I like the Trijicon RMR with a red 3.5 MOA dot. It works well on my Heym 500 NE double and has thus far not let me down. Killed my 1st buffalo in 2014 with that setup.

With a bit of practice lifting the rifle and aiming at a target, continually exercising one’s self to get it right and get it fast makes a world of difference.

I have a 1 MOA RMR mounted on my 450 NE double, but I must say I’d prefer a 2 MOA dot for a blend of speed and granularity for the longer shots.

If Trijicon decides to do a 2 MOA dot, I’ll replace my current fleet of various Trijicon RMRs with 2 MOA RMRs.

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Ripp
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Postman]
      #368884 - 02/09/22 07:06 AM

Quote:

I like the Trijicon RMR with a red 3.5 MOA dot. It works well on my Heym 500 NE double and has thus far not let me down. Killed my 1st buffalo in 2014 with that setup.

With a bit of practice lifting the rifle and aiming at a target, continually exercising one’s self to get it right and get it fast makes a world of difference.

I have a 1 MOA RMR mounted on my 450 NE double, but I must say I’d prefer a 2 MOA dot for a blend of speed and granularity for the longer shots.

If Trijicon decides to do a 2 MOA dot, I’ll replace my current fleet of various Trijicon RMRs with 2 MOA RMRs.



Trijicon makes really good stuff--Tried an SRO the other day on a Glock 17.. was awesome..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Ripp]
      #368891 - 02/09/22 05:30 PM

I wish the red dot sight makers made them with an arrow or triangle instead of dots or circles. So much more accurate. Can have a 5 MOA triangle for quick shooting. The tip of the triangle for accuracy.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #368892 - 02/09/22 05:32 PM

I'll try again. Anyone know of sights using a triangle or an open arrow/V . The movie "Outpost" shows the latter.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #368893 - 02/09/22 05:33 PM

Quote:

Degoins , If someone will post the pics I will be glad to email them. I’ve never had much luck with pictures. Sorry
Robert
(Just PM me)



Email to me. I will see if I can. Only using a tablet at the moment. Maybe you have already? I forget?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #368904 - 02/09/22 11:41 PM

Emails sent.
Thx

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Ripp
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #368909 - 03/09/22 12:38 AM

Quote:

I'll try again. Anyone know of sights using a triangle or an open arrow/V . The movie "Outpost" shows the latter.



Trijicon

ACOG has that type of reticle
https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/ta31f

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (03/09/22 01:36 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Ripp]
      #368912 - 03/09/22 01:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'll try again. Anyone know of sights using a triangle or an open arrow/V . The movie "Outpost" shows the latter.



Trijicon

ACOG has that type of reticle
https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/ta31f



Yes that's the sight and reticle on the M4s.



A triangle or v 's tip can be very sv0ccurate compared to a circle dot.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #368919 - 03/09/22 02:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll try again. Anyone know of sights using a triangle or an open arrow/V . The movie "Outpost" shows the latter.



Trijicon

ACOG has that type of reticle
https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/ta31f



Yes that's the sight and reticle on the M4s.



A triangle or v 's tip can be very sv0ccurate compared to a circle dot.



The 1MOA or 2.5MOA can actually be more accurate than one thinks as well.. When training with my retired military guys, they all have dots.. as I stated above.. smaller dots leads to very acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards with a handgun..

I see your point..(pun intended)... and agree, the triangle is very good ..

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Rule303
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Ripp]
      #368933 - 03/09/22 08:40 AM

Also look at the Trijicon 1-4 one of their reticles is a picket post set up. The post is two thin lines, looks solid but isn't with a solid triangle on top is a different colour, reg or green or amber. Very quick to use and can be used for pinpoint shooting. Close and fast cover aiming point with the triangle, Pinpoint shooting use the top point of the triangle. Similar intent as the above.

Trijicon make scopes that are very rugged/strong and tend to be innovative.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Rule303]
      #368936 - 03/09/22 07:43 PM

Perhaps prompted by my mention of the "Outpost" military "red dot ∆" sight. Which turns out to be actually a 4x scope. I was meaning really 1x red dot or v dot sight not a scope. When getting to scopes all sorts of reticles, illuminated reticles are possible.

The Trijicon 1-4x reticle isn't bad. I don't know if I would choose that reticle or another.

At first thought Trijicon was still only those aweful accupoint scopes. Cheap looking, ugly. And the useless tritium and daylight unpowered illuminated scopes. "Automatic" light intensity setting which is dim in the dark, and washes out in daylight.

BUT due to better examples by other makers I see they now offer a battery accupower version. Which has some good points. Set your intensity. And each half setting is an off. Half a click to turn off or in, not 12 clicks! Excellent.

At US$700 for a 1-4x I might put one on my Valmet 12b/7x65R. Or .30-06 or 9.3x74R Valmet U/O barrels. But way too fugly for a good double rifle. But I would consider other reticles. For the Valmet combination shotgun rifle barrels in 12b and 7x65R or .223, the 1x scope reticle needs to work well for the shotgun. And on 1x or 4x work well for the rifle barrel. 4x is OK for the 7x65R. 8x is better for a .223.

A 1-4x scope is fine for a 9.3x74R U/O. OK for a .30-06 U/O as well.

For a side by side I would look more for a RMR type dot with a V dot. The RMR with the battery underneath is a huge negative. I believe Doktor or similar has the battery changeable from on top. Imagine having to unscrew from a dovetail to change the battery and then possibly have to resight it in again.

As I said why are only DOTs offered? An inverted V or triangle allows accurate aiming on the point.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: Ripp]
      #368937 - 03/09/22 07:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll try again. Anyone know of sights using a triangle or an open arrow/V . The movie "Outpost" shows the latter.



Trijicon

ACOG has that type of reticle
https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/ta31f



Yes that's the sight and reticle on the M4s.



A triangle or v 's tip can be very accurate compared to a circle dot.



The 1MOA or 2.5MOA can actually be more accurate than one thinks as well.. When training with my retired military guys, they all have dots.. as I stated above.. smaller dots leads to very acceptable accuracy out to 100 yards with a handgun..

I see your point..(pun intended)... and agree, the triangle is very good ..



The reason I said 3.5 MOA, even 6 MOA is better, V dot, use the tip for accuracy, is the 1 and 2 MOA are too small for good quick shooting. Especially shotgun. A 6 MOA is good for a shotgun but inaccurate for rifle shooting except close quick stuff. A compromise could be a 3.5 to 6 MOA V or ∆.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #369443 - 22/09/22 02:32 AM

Quote:

I have 2 of the Leopold models mounted on 2 different double rifles (a .303 and a 375 2 1/2”) plus a 416 Rigby bolt rifle. Inside 100 yards I actually like them better than a scope. JJ Perodeau made new rear sites for all of them with a small grove on the side. He drifted the original rear site out and reinstalled his rear site and then mounted the red dot. This keeps the rifle all original with no modifications, a very clean set up (and allows my old eyes to still enjoy my doubles).
Hope that helps,
Robert




Holland & Holland .30 Super, 4585



Thomas Bland .375 2 1/2”
Bland with red dot . 4549 4550




.303 Woodward Automatic
4546. 4547. 4548



416 Rigby with red dot .
4542. 4543

Apologies, I missed the emails when they came in.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #369447 - 22/09/22 03:14 AM

I like this set up. Remove vintage express sights. Keep on hand for authenticity. Buy new similar rear sight. Attach . Cut grove or what is required on new rear sight. Attach red dot sight. If light enough may not affect regulation. Preferably QD.

Now if the red dot does not "star" for me, even better.

Triangle big 3.5 MOA dot please!

A red dot sight should be faster shooting

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: NitroX]
      #369457 - 22/09/22 09:52 AM

Thanks for posting for me John. I actually just picked up that Holland super .30 since the original posting. JJ made a replacement blank drifted it back in where the site was and put a grove in it then mounted the red dot (we were trying to get it as low as possible). The others we did a complete replacement site and then mounted the red dot. On the Rigby since it was a New Rigby and not a vintage he just cut a groove in the quarter rib. Even with my old eyes I can shoot with a red dot out to 125 yards or so with no problem. It’s a nice way to shoot the old guns and keep them original.
Robert
(And, I agree a triangle might be the ideal set up)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red Dot Sights [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #374072 - 13/02/23 02:49 AM

I'm still looking.

Open style "dot" sight.

Arrow or upside down V sight. 3.5 moa. Battery. Battery can be swapped without removing from the rifle. Can be mounted on a groove or some suitable dr mounting. Low profile, not bulky. Must stand up to heavy recoil.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (13/02/23 03:53 PM)

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