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kuduae
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Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365864 - 25/05/22 04:06 AM

Quote:

In fact, the .275 Rigby made before the war came out from the Oberndorf factory as barrelled actions fully finished in the white and proofed while Rigby only intervention was limited to stocking, sighting and finishing.www.dorleac-dorleac.com




Joel, not even stocking! Go to page 35 of Jon Speed’s “Archive” book: There you find some 1905 Mauser factory photos of barreled actions in the white as shipped to Rigby’s. They were complete with sight bases and sling eyes. And there is a note too about the Mauser, Oberndorf factory making stocks for Rigby to a pattern supplied by Rigby. Further, Jon once told me he had found “Stocks for Rigby rifles” in a 1920s Oberndorf factory inventory.


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kuduae
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: kuduae]
      #365866 - 25/05/22 04:49 AM

To me, this action and barrel lack all the earmarks of a 1930s Mauser, Oberndorf commercial action:
I have yet to see an original 1930s commercial action with a round instead of teardrop bolthandle and a short striker nut, features that appear on late commercial actions from 1940 to 1945 only.
The serial number 1124 does not fit into the Mauser commercial sequence. A 1930s Mauser number would be in the 110000 to 116000 range. Such a Mauser number would be on the underside of the receiver, behind the recoil lug, on all commercial actions sold to other gunmakers. Here the receiver lacks the typical script G or Q worker’s and the ornate "gothic letter" marks usually found on such actions. Instead, there is a plethora of worker’s marks as usually found on receivers made by the government arsenals up to WW1. Then there is a German civilian crown/U view mark under the front end of the receiver ring.
The barrel dimensions in mm are marked on the barrel at right angles. The Mauser factory put this information on lengthwise.
As it is a standard length large ring action, it is a Gewehr 98 action left over from WW1 production, likely barreled in Suhl and bought in by Rigby from a source other than Mauser. The “commercial” appearing triggerguard does not change my opinion as it is just a matter of filing to reshape a rough military undermetal to this form, a common feature of Suhl made Mausers.


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kuduae
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: kuduae]
      #365867 - 25/05/22 06:30 AM

Some examples of what the receiver undersides of commercial Mauser, Oberndorf actions sold to other gunmakers look like:
Mauser #17 on an early cock on closing transitional action, rifle by Sauer & Sohn, Suhl. The lowest Mauser number I have seen. #19 is on a Rigby rifle.


#114 Rigby #1059


#199 Rigby #2457


#279 on a Sauer & Sohn rifle


#19759 on a Suhl made rifle retailed by Hermann Franck in Magdeburg


#22064 by W. Foerster, Berlin


#49784 retailed by W. Bening in Wilhelmshafen, but Suhl made also


#74352


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3DogMike
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: kuduae]
      #365868 - 25/05/22 06:31 AM

Quote:

To me, this action and barrel lack all the earmarks of a 1930s Mauser, Oberndorf commercial action:
I have yet to see an original 1930s commercial action with a round instead of teardrop bolthandle and a short striker nut, features that appear on late commercial actions from 1940 to 1945 only.
The serial number 1124 does not fit into the Mauser commercial sequence. A 1930s Mauser number would be in the 110000 to 116000 range. Such a Mauser number would be on the underside of the receiver, behind the recoil lug, on all commercial actions sold to other gunmakers. Here the receiver lacks the typical script G or Q worker’s and the ornate K marks usually found on such actions. Instead, there is a plethora of worker’s marks as usually found on receivers made by the government arsenals up to WW1. Then there is a German civilian crown/U view mark under the front end of the receiver ring.
The barrel dimensions in mm are marked on the barrel at right angles. The Mauser factory put this information on lengthwise.
As it is a standard length large ring action, it is a Gewehr 98 action left over from WW1 production, likely barreled in Suhl and bought in by Rigby from a source other than Mauser. The “commercial” appearing triggerguard does not change my opinion as it is just a matter of filing to reshape a rough military undermetal to this form, a common feature of Suhl made Mausers.



kuduae,
This is very interesting and informative, thanks for adding this.
A question then: the left action siderail has no markings at all, but with a thumb cutout. If a Gewehr 98 WW1 production would this mean that the action bypassed the step in fabrication/acceptance where it would have been stamped "Gew 98" or similar? Could this have later been ground/polished off by Rigby or their supplier?
My 1930's made Cogswell and Harrison M98 also has no action markings save the (Vickers?) serial number and London View stamp.
The smaller parts (bolt, bolt shroud, bolt stop, etc are all stamped with the last two digits "23" of the "1123" upper stamp on the receiver ring found above the Rigby serial number "5628".
I believe the mentioned German crown/U view mark under the front of the receiver ring is actually the London crown/V view mark the same as with the London proof marks on the barrel?

All very historically interesting.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365870 - 25/05/22 08:17 AM

Mike, a simple question, but complicated to answer! First, nearly all the Mauser, Oberndorf commercial actions have the “thumbhole”, patented by Mauser as a means of gas control if a case ruptured. Only few actions with solid left walls were made on special demand from the mid-1930s on.
Before WW1 the Mauser patents were still valid. DWM, mother company of Mauser, made military rifles for the international trade only and left the civilian market to their subsidiary Mauser. The government arsenals Spandau, Erfurt, Danzig and Amberg, were allowed to make military rifles for the German armies only. Anyone wanting to make a sporting rifle with a M98 Mauser actions had three ways to go: Reputable gunmakers had to buy an a commercial action from the Mauser, Oberndorf factory first. At those times the Mauser factory sold more than 70% of their commercial production as “actions only” or barreled actions to other gunmakers.Or he could buy a complete DWM military rifle from a production overrun through the international arms trade and tear it down for the action. And then there was a grey to black market. “Junk” parts that did not pass the stringent military inspection were scrounged from the factories, both DWM and government arsenals, reworked and completed into usable actions and sold to gunmakers. Many such actions went to England and were used by Rigby’s competitors.
This all changed after 1918. Hundreds of thousands of ex. Gewehr 98s and Karabiner 98s had to be demilitarized. At those innocent times cutting off the foreend and removing the bayonet lug did the job. The actions were scrubbed off the military markings and were used to build sporting rifles. In Suhl there was another source for unmarked actions: From 1915 to mid.1917 the making of Gew 98 rifles was decentralized to meet the war demand. All the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis guntrade made parts to be assembled and marked to complete rifles by Sauer&Sohn, Simson abd C.G.Haenel. But none of the Suhl factories were equipped to machine receivers or some other complicated part. So the Suhl guntrade was supplied with machined receivers by the state arsenals and less likely capable companies like Siemens&Halske and H.Pieper in occupied Liege. As the demand of the shrinking German armies was met in mid 1917, Gew 98 making was stopped quite suddenly. So tons of unfinished and unmarked parts were left over. These served the Suhl guntrade through all the interwar years. Suhl dealers exported such new actions made from these stocks too. So there are two possibilities for your unmarked actions: They may be scrubbed ex-military or they may be completed and assembled post-WW1 from left over and new made parts.
Axel


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kuduae
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365871 - 25/05/22 08:57 AM

Quote:

I believe the mentioned German crown/U view mark under the front of the receiver ring is actually the London crown/V view mark the same as with the London proof marks on the barrel?





Ooops!, I was looking at the wrong photo only. It is the London view mark indeed.
But to the barrel: Would a 1930s British barrelmaker have marked his barrel with metric numbers for bore diameter, groove diameter and twist length?


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3DogMike
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: kuduae]
      #365877 - 25/05/22 12:45 PM

Quote:

…..(snip)... But to the barrel: Would a 1930s British barrelmaker have marked his barrel with metric numbers for bore diameter, groove diameter and twist length?



kuduae,
I'm confused, & admit that I'm no whiz on German proof marks.
Could you enlighten me as to where you get German stamped metric bore, groove, and twist from (I presume) the stamped numbers 67288 on the barrel?
Typical 7mm metric BORE proof was ~6.98mm (.275"), and usual 7x57 twist in metric would be 220mm?

The stamped 7m/m 2.24" on the barrel (7m/m cartridge 2.24" case length) is certainly the British 1925 Rules of Proof required proof mark for a 7x57 chambering and stamped right along with the other London View and Definitive proof marks.
Please clear this up to educate me so as to clear my confusion on this point.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365884 - 25/05/22 06:12 PM

My mistake! In your "barrel number?" photo I could read "illegible - 7.2 / illegible" only instead of 67288. I assumed the numbers to be the bore dimension markings as applied by German barrelmakers. So this number has another meaning.

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3DogMike
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: kuduae]
      #365890 - 25/05/22 11:06 PM

Quote:

My mistake! In your "barrel number?" photo I could read "illegible - 7.2 / illegible" only instead of 67288. I assumed the numbers to be the bore dimension markings as applied by German barrelmakers. So this number has another meaning.



My very marginal photography skills did not help
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DORLEAC
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365891 - 25/05/22 11:16 PM


Just for info, three N°1 Rigby .275 rifles we have sold.
All made on original Mauser intermediate action in the late 1920.

Regards to all.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com































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bouldersmith
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365892 - 25/05/22 11:16 PM

As to the shape of the bolt handle, many commercial Mausers from the 1930's had round knobs such as the Standard Modell, Type C rifles and Riechspost rifles. All three resemble military guns more that sporting rifles but were retailed as commercial sporters and German commercial proof marks.

--------------------
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DORLEAC
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: bouldersmith]
      #365893 - 25/05/22 11:25 PM

Quote:

As to the shape of the bolt handle, many commercial Mausers from the 1930's had round knobs such as the Standard Modell, Type C rifles and Riechspost rifles. All three resemble military guns more that sporting rifles but were retailed as commercial sporters and German commercial proof marks.




Sorry, but I'm not sure about that at all.
In fact, the round knob appears very late during the period of the Second World War, circa 1943.
On the other hand you can meet this type of round knobs on the very first productions.
Reference should be made to the work of Jon Speed and to his two major books: "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" and "The Mauser Archive".

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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Ripp
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: Huvius]
      #365894 - 25/05/22 11:59 PM

Quote:

And to think you could have bought a Highland Stalker instead of an old junker like that...






--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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3DogMike
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: Ripp]
      #365901 - 26/05/22 01:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

And to think you could have bought a Highland Stalker instead of an old junker like that...








Ripp, you and Ben (huvius) have shown me the error of my ways. I will go directly to our local gun & pawn to trade it in for a nice new Tikka or Savage in (of course) 6.5 Creedmoore
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Ripp
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: 3DogMike]
      #365903 - 26/05/22 01:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

And to think you could have bought a Highland Stalker instead of an old junker like that...








Ripp, you and Ben (huvius) have shown me the error of my ways. I will go directly to our local gun & pawn to trade it in for a nice new Tikka or Savage in (of course) 6.5 Creedmoore
- Mike




Perfect.. EVERYONE in the know realizes the 6.5CM is the greatest cartridge ever invented..

On a more serious note, YOU made a great purchase and find with this one.. Great job..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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bouldersmith
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: Ripp]
      #365904 - 26/05/22 01:55 AM

RE: speed reference pg. 111 at the very bottom "Most Mauser-made sporters had pear shaped bolt handles, but military -type bolt handles were also used."

This is in the section about the Army Hunting rifle Model C.

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: bouldersmith]
      #365911 - 26/05/22 03:10 AM

Quote:

RE: speed reference pg. 111 at the very bottom "Most Mauser-made sporters had pear shaped bolt handles, but military -type bolt handles were also used."

This is in the section about the Army Hunting rifle Model C.



The model C Army type hunting rifles were made using rejected or leftover parts of the military production. They were not offered any more after WW1.
The Standard model and the Modell fuer die Reichspost were military rifles. Not made for the regular Reichswehr, they were sold to paramilitary police and party organisations, bypassing the rules of the Versailles Treaty. As they were not official military rifles they had to undergo civilian proof. They were never sold piecemeal to the public or retailed to individuals. So they cannot be rated as "commercial Mausers".


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: kuduae]
      #366131 - 31/05/22 07:45 PM

Definitely the case. There are several members of the BGRC who have pre-war Rigby's and at least two of them were completely made in Germany including the stocks which have both Mauser numbers inside as well as Rigby. The only thing Rigby did was to specify the details of the rifle such as stock design and types of sights etc.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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3DogMike
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Re: 1936 vintage Rigby in .275HV [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #366184 - 01/06/22 09:37 AM

Shame that Rigby records do not specify any odd details like the stocker, barrel maker, source for action/barreled action. Certainly could have been supplied as action, barreled action, or complete rifle to specification by the trade in England or from Mauser.
Would make for interesting discussion.
As I may have mentioned previously my Cogswell & Harrison M98 in .242 Vickers has a stock (with the exception of the unusual ~1" longer forend on the Rigby) that is line for line, checkering, and steel buttplate a nearly exact clone of the Rigby stock. Both from the mid 1930's.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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