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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Werder Hunting rifle
      #365427 - 12/05/22 05:27 AM

a friend bought a bavarian M 1869 Werder Blitzgewehr / ligthning rifle that was sporterized between 1888 and 1914 into a hunting rifle. if you don't know it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npzAhVtAoQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOd_XTrLPOw

its called the best rifle of the franco - prussian war of 1870/71 and for some time people were thinking it became the new german breechloader after the war but it lost against the mauser 71, btw the mauser brothers hate it because of its complicated mechanism. original in 11,5x50R Werder most of the rifles were rechambered for the 11,15x60r after 1873 what was easy because the Mauser cartridge is a lengthended Werder cartridge. This rifle here got a new barrel sometimes for the 10x47R, one of the mauser case "wildcats".

he visit me with his new rifle because need help with ammo.










the rifle had a ramrod maybe for get sticking cases out. looks like the original is missing and someone made a new one from bamboo

















he got 30 cases made from 11,15x60R brass and some 10,3 mm 278 grains bullets( maybe for the swiss vetterli)
it have a real polygonal rifling




slug the barrel with a .45 bullet, 9,5 mm from edge to edge, 10,0 mm from corner to corner




there came a wooden grip with the rifle and there is a rectangular hole in the stock where someone glued a piece of oak wood into. the rear of the wood grip would fit into this old hole




situation looks unclear but maybe I find a solution for the grip







thats how this works











he got 30 cases, looks like the former owner use something like a 41 mag die for neck sizing but it was done very crude.when sizing the neck with this tool it became 10,3 mm inside. this is maybe the reason for the oversized bullet.they simply fit into the brass after sizing with what he had. he shot smokless powder, btw, we try to get the loading data from him.



my 41 mag softpoint resized to .407( .401 WSL) fit perfect into the brass



the new owner of the rifle will invest into a custom die set, I recommend ch4d.
for me its the first time to deal with a polygonal blackpowder rifle. which bullet diameter is the best? 10,0 mm? a mould for 10 mm auto will be available.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4198
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #365432 - 12/05/22 06:58 AM

Wow!
Never seen one of those Lancaster, you certainly can find the rare & unusual ones!
Sort of like a Martini isn't it, no wonder they had the cleaning rod to knock the cases out!
Looks in pretty good nick really, glad you fixed the handguard, more so looks the part.
Have to ask, how did you find a piece like that, get Louis on the trail!
I suppose a lead projectile would be best in this old girl, a bit more work for you mate to figure it out completely.

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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #365439 - 12/05/22 03:32 PM

I love kipplauf's I'm not sure if that technically qualified as one but who cares, it's an interesting and beautiful gun.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #365441 - 12/05/22 03:36 PM

not hard to find in germany, I had them before here and in normal times there is allways a werder sporter on egun.

look here
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=230486&page=0&fpart=3&vc=1

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=230486&page=0&fpart=7&vc=1

the typical old bavarian poacher don't hand it over to american troops in 45, was hide in the mountains anyway. the rifle is not mine. I am only the one who bring ammo supply on the way now.
it will be very easy to reload when a real die set is in the house. until this day I will improvise it with the dies having here, the new owner made the reloading licence next time. yes, for buying powder you have to made a weekend course with an exam. sounds cracy but maybe not a bad idea with common stupidity in humanity.

anyone here having experience with polygonal barrels and the rigth bullet diameter?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #366432 - 08/06/22 03:29 AM

finaly the wooden pistol grip was extended and fited





I made a new ramrod from tropical hard wood that looks a little bit better than the bammboo stick







the brass cap was made by using a 32 S&W case

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4198
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #366442 - 08/06/22 07:18 AM

How goes the loading for this old piece Lancaster, got it sorted yet?

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #366451 - 08/06/22 12:46 PM

Another interesting Lancaster project.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Werder Hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #366459 - 08/06/22 02:31 PM

make a chamber cast, its the 10x47R https://old.municion.org/Foerster/10x47RFoerster.htm

ch4d have it in the list but we have to control the measurements before. I load the brass with 7,5 grains trailboss so the owner can try the rifle first time but without the die set it was a pain in the a...

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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