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NitroXAdministrator
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A modern howdah cartridge
      #365184 - 03/05/22 10:59 PM

I've got an itch and it needs scratching ....

I was dreaming of whether a current experienced double rifle maker could make a howdah pistol

An appropriately sized action. Under lever or side lever.

Action shaped or reshaped with a curved tang and curved trigger "plate".

Hammers.

Appropriate length barrels. Well regulated as well as a handgun can be.

Now what cartridge and chambering?

The .577 Snider was a 450 gr or 480 gr bullet. 70 grs of BP. A standard to aim by.

An obvious one is .45/70. .45, 450 yes, 70 grs BP.

A Nitro for Black in a modern gun is better.

But I think a .500 or a .577 is better.

The original .577 Snider a maybe.

What would be a modern choice?

Obviously flanged.

Maybe a shortened .500 NE case or a shortened .577 NE case?

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DarylS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #365190 - 04/05/22 01:51 AM

.460 S&W or .500 S&W Magnums with heavier bullets. are good possibilities, but might present high pressure problems.
If small and mighty are too high pressured, that leaves larger diameter bullets and cases as the 'viable' alternative.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #379750 - 30/09/23 03:10 PM

Bttt

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #379751 - 30/09/23 03:15 PM

Quote:

.460 S&W or .500 S&W Magnums with heavier bullets. are good possibilities, but might present high pressure problems.
If small and mighty are too high pressured, that leaves larger diameter bullets and cases as the 'viable' alternative.



No idea what those cartridges are. Ballistics needed. Are they rimmed?

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degoins
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #379764 - 30/09/23 10:42 PM

.577, 12 or 20 bore would work for me. I've fired a homemade 12 bore single shot howdah with either a slug or buckshot ( it was 40 years ago) one handed and it wasn't too bad, other than the side lever jamming into the web of my hand.

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degoins
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: degoins]
      #379765 - 30/09/23 10:43 PM

I should have put howdah in quotes.

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DarylS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #379767 - 01/10/23 03:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

.460 S&W or .500 S&W Magnums with heavier bullets. are good possibilities, but might present high pressure problems.
If small and mighty are too high pressured, that leaves larger diameter bullets and cases as the 'viable' alternative.



No idea what those cartridges are. Ballistics needed. Are they rimmed?



Both rimmed. The .460, from a 10 3/4" bl will run 400gr. bullets up to about 1,700fps.
The 500, from a 10" bl. will push 500gr. up to 1,600fps. However, both are high pressure revolver ctgs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #379770 - 01/10/23 10:33 AM

John:

I've kicked this around a lot. Why? Who knows.

Make mine a smoothbore with choke tubes...rifled also.

It already exists and there are 2 options.

Take your pick:

.550 bore:

https://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/brenneke-28tm/

.615 bore:

https://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/magnumtm/

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379777 - 01/10/23 03:26 PM

the 28 ga brennecke is to light with only 273 grains. I would go for the 20 ga mag with 473 grains, this is the force.
years ago I see a pair of howdah pistols, one in 577 snider and the other 20ga smooth with roundballs.
sawed off double guns are a legal problem in the US if I understand it correctly. you have to pay 200 bucks to the ATF for register the gun to make it legal?
here it would cost similar including a visit to the proof house to proof it again ( any real change one the barrels need a new proof) but then it would be a "pistol" and need one of the common two pistol licences you get.

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Hunter4752001
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #379785 - 02/10/23 10:21 AM

I suspect that 500 S&W, 460 S&W and 454 Casull may cause pressure issues in a 'howdah' style action. However 480 Ruger may be suitable. Not as hot as 475 Linebaugh but quite adequate.

Another cartridge which shouldn't be ignored is .45 Colt loaded to the Ruger/Freedom Arms level. Not being greater than 45 cal, licensing would be easier for those of us in the Peoples Republic of Oz.

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DarylS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #379786 - 02/10/23 10:30 AM

Sawed off SxS's are also a problem here, in Canada - prohibited if barrel is modified shorter than 18". There is also a minimum length of 26", so could have an 18" bl. and 8" butt stock.
With the length, and a forend, obviously not meant to be fired with one hand, thus, not a handgun.
At the same time, the Lib/Tard/Socialist Government has placed a moratorium on the transfer and purchase (buy or sell, borrow/lend) of handguns.
26" makes for a long, 2-handed firearm.

--------------------
Daryl


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9.3x57
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #379789 - 02/10/23 10:52 AM

Quote:

the 28 ga brennecke is to light with only 273 grains. I would go for the 20 ga mag with 473 grains, this is the force.
years ago I see a pair of howdah pistols, one in 577 snider and the other 20ga smooth with roundballs.
sawed off double guns are a legal problem in the US if I understand it correctly. you have to pay 200 bucks to the ATF for register the gun to make it legal?
here it would cost similar including a visit to the proof house to proof it again ( any real change one the barrels need a new proof) but then it would be a "pistol" and need one of the common two pistol licences you get.



It's too light for sure but a 28 is close to the .577 & I wonder about a black powder load with a heavy "badminton birdie" slug pushing 350 grains or a bit more for the smooth bore.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 9.3x57]
      #384556 - 28/04/24 11:43 PM

Howdahs have become something of a passion or maybe an obsession for me....and while I may never actually hunt a Tiger from an Elephant, it IS the stuff of fantasies.

Soooo in this case are we talking a strictly modern cartridge OR one that "looks" historically correct? The 45-70 is like pushing the EASY Button. It has both a historical loads (405 gr) and modern almost magnum level loads. The historical load meets the power level we desire and will work in the traditional type of gun we want. Honestly the modern loads may be too much. So 45-70 works; but does it look right? Maybe??? 45-70 is the EASY Button; but theres are certain height/width proportions that the 577 Snider screams and the 45-70 looks a little slim.

500 S&W certainly has the power and it mostly fits the height/width look; but its maybe too much in the factory loadings. Ive fired a 500 S&W out of a 10" Encore, trust me its more than a handful. A Heavier double barrel may help; but a slightly down loaded, maybe 500 Special would work AND it looks right.

Ive heard talk about using 50-70. It has the power and looks; just not the easily availability. A 20 or better yet 28 gauge slug loaded in a full length brass shell with the lead exposed works from the historical and mostly modern perspective.

Now theres the question of the gun...

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85lc
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #384563 - 29/04/24 03:54 AM

I think that a 577 Sinder or a 20 ga would be very effective and more pleasant to shoot as compared to the 500S&W, 460S&W or 454Casull. I shoot a 454 Casull and have shot a 500 S&W. Those are great hunting rounds but, unless reloaded down somewhat, not the fun gun to protect oneself against vicious rocks, pinecones, armadillo, opossums, etc that I may encounter on a day in the woods. Of course, if there were real tigers agound, my 454 Casull loaded hot would be nice.

--------------------
RB

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 9.3x57]
      #384571 - 29/04/24 10:46 PM

Quote:

John:

I've kicked this around a lot. Why? Who knows.

Make mine a smoothbore with choke tubes...rifled also.

It already exists and there are 2 options.

Take your pick:

.550 bore:

https://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/brenneke-28tm/

.615 bore:

https://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/magnumtm/



Why are Brenneckes impossible to get in Australia?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Jim_C
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #384578 - 30/04/24 12:37 AM

Velocity with the .577 Snider in a 10" barrel was ~920fps (standard BP rifle loads). A rapid second shot wouldn't be aimed--the smoke cloud was pretty dense.

When 50-70 brass wasn't obtainable, the standard dodge was to use .348 Winchester cases blown out to .50 caliber and trimmed to length. This might make a suitable howdah cartridge.

The .500 Linebaugh cartridge might be worth considering. Parent brass is a .348 Winchester, cut to 1.4", blown out, with the rim slightly reduced in diameter: for a howdah, you wouldn't need to reduce the rim. My old "plinking" load in this resulted in a 530 grain bullet at ~960fps. We also used to load what we jokingly called a "50 special": 500 grain wadcutter at 725 fps. (Velocities from a revolver with a 6.5" barrel.)

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DarylS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: Jim_C]
      #384581 - 30/04/24 12:59 AM

Buffalo Arms sells or sold .50/70 brass as well as .50 Alaskan brass.
I've made .50/70 brass out of .577 Exp. and .348 cases. I lucked out with my .50/70 barrel being an original 1867 contract lined .54 percussion barrel. This had a 1.9" straight taper chamber, not the normal .50/70's 1 3/4" bl.
My best load (22" carbine bl.) was a 450gr. bullet with 10gr. IMR3031 and 60gr. 2F GOEX. 3" at 100 meters.
The .50 Alaskan has a 2.1" case length. With a paper patched to bore size bullet, the case (Starline) will hold a full 91gr. Swiss 1 1/2 FG. That will get it rockin'. With a 550gr. RCBS bullet, the .50 Alaskan will hold 86gr. 2F GOEX in my .348 cases.
I didn't get around to chronographing my load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 85lc]
      #384584 - 30/04/24 03:07 AM

Quote:

I think that a 577 Sinder or a 20 ga would be very effective and more pleasant to shoot as compared to the 500S&W, 460S&W or 454Casull. I shoot a 454 Casull and have shot a 500 S&W. Those are great hunting rounds but, unless reloaded down somewhat, not the fun gun to protect oneself against vicious rocks, pinecones, armadillo, opossums, etc that I may encounter on a day in the woods. Of course, if there were real tigers agound, my 454 Casull loaded hot would be nice.



Yes I agree 500SW is excessive in power and recoil. I was thinking a downloaded or perhaps a BP load would work for both power and acceptable recoil. It also has the "look" of a Howdah cartridge,

A 20ga all brass shell (perhaps shortened to 2 or 2.5 inches), with a star crimp (picture a Paradox cartridge). Im also guessing it might be somewhat historically correct???

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85lc
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #384589 - 30/04/24 07:30 AM

Jim C.

You make a great point about smoke from a BP gun obscuring the target. The first time I shot a BP double rifle, I was surprised how little I could see of the target - I was glad I wasn't shooting something that could hurt me.

However, if one were in a howdah (or other small enclosure), I would expect that the firing range of the 1st barrel would be a few feet and the 2nd barrel, the range would be inches if not contact. Smoke likely would not impact the outcome.

However, I don't want to have 1st hand experience to test my theory.

On effectiveness, a 480 gr harden, solid lead bullet at 920 fps should penetrate well and thus could be effective against most game.

However, no pistols (including 500 S&W) are anywhere as effective as a heavy caliber rifle or 12 ga shotgun. That said, in lieu of a pistol, I would rather have a Winchester 97 with slugs. I think that even I, in the face of a dangerous game attack, could operate the slide very quickly.

However, all that said, my thought of a howdah type pictol is is just fun, action shooting -- blowing up rocks, etc.

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RB

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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 85lc]
      #384950 - 22/05/24 11:58 PM

Interesting thread here, just a thought came to mind for those of us in the USA:
I believe (not positive) that any cartridge handgun cannot exceed .500” so any .attempt at 577, etc. requires a special application, review, and permission from the BATF. (OMG, a destructive device don’t you know)
Of course this does not apply to those existing antique Howdah pistols and modern muzzle loaders.

- Mike

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85lc
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #384955 - 23/05/24 09:09 AM

Mike,
You are correct that handgun calibers cannot exceed .500". Of course, a 500 S&W is likely the limit of what most people can reasonably handle and will certainly outperform any of the vintage howdah rounds like the .577 Sinder (from a pistol).

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RB

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yamoon
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: 85lc]
      #385801 - 16/07/24 01:50 PM

I don’t know much about howdah cartridges, but I put my faith in large bore heavy bullets. The one that resides in my bedside table is a S&W 25-5 chambered for the venerable 45 LC. It is loaded with 260gr Keith style SWC powered by a heavy dose of 2400.

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lancaster
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: yamoon]
      #385809 - 17/07/24 12:34 AM

imho, the .500 S&W is the howdah pistol cartridge they dream about 130 years ago

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #385811 - 17/07/24 02:09 AM

Quote:

imho, the .500 S&W is the howdah pistol cartridge they dream about 130 years ago



A 500 gr or more projectile would be very effective.



Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
300 gr (19 g) FTX Hornady 2,075 ft/s (632 m/s) 2,868 ftlb (3,888 J)
350 gr (23 g) XTP HP Underwood 1,912 ft/s (583 m/s) 2,842 ftlb (3,853 J)
520 gr (34 g) WFNGC TII +L 1,580 ft/s (480 m/s) 2,882 ftlb (3,907 J)
620 gr (40 g) WFNGC TII +L 1,390 ft/s (420 m/s) 2,660 ftlb (3,610 J)
700 gr (45 g) WFN Underwood 1,200 ft/s (370 m/s) 2,238 ftlb (3,034 J)

Test barrel length: 8.375 in
Source(s): Hornady (300 gr),[1] Underwood,[2] and TII Armory (520 gr +L and 620 gr +L),[3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S%26W_Magnum



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (17/07/24 02:11 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: A modern howdah cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #385820 - 17/07/24 08:09 AM

In all the testing/shooting videos I've seen with the .500 S&W, the 700 gr. Load is the most impressive for straight penetration.
Just saying, but my .50 3 1/4" Sharps put the 700gr. out at 1,450fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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