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NitroXAdministrator
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Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora
      #365060 - 30/04/22 01:52 AM

I need to fix the image size.

April 21, 2016
The Howdah Pistol - Built for the Final Charge.


Left. H. Holland .577 Snyder circa 1867. Right. Holland & Holland .360 No.5.

By Larry Blunk

One gun that has always seemed very interesting to me is the so-called Howdah pistol. The history is rich and it was originally created to serve as a last-ditch effort from attacking animals whilst on the hunt. The name of the gun originates from the use of the Howdah – or rather the carriage if you will – placed atop an elephant while hunting. These were quite popular for hunting in India especially during the late 19th and into the early 20th century. The need arose after, one must assume, a few hunters were plucked from their howdahs by angry tigers! The hunter needed a way to defend himself quickly and easily – much more so than a long barreled rifle could provide. H. A. Leveson is quoted in regards to the howdah pistol, “to be effective, the muzzle must be placed close to the tiger’s head, and care must be taken not to kill the mahout.” The mahout was the one who would lead or tend the elephant and was generally the first to be attacked by a tiger.

Shooting from a Howdah


These guns started out merely as cut-down, out of use rifles. Therefore, it is typical to see them using rifle cartridges that have also been trimmed. The original howdah pistols could be smooth or rifle bored guns; although I’m sure many of them were built from rifles that had seen their rifling deteriorate through heavy use; making them nearly useless for accurate shooting. Because of the close range use, long distance accuracy was not a requirement! Over the years, I have seen a few of these that were of the original variety and, although they were not pretty, I’m sure they were able to get the job done! It wasn’t until the middle of the 19th century when the English makers started producing guns specifically meant for howdahs – or merely a defense type gun that could be worn on one’s belt. All of the big names – Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, and Purdey – made these types of Howdah pistols. They were also naturally produced by much smaller firms and probably cobbled together in India, as well.

Peterson and Elman in their book, “The Great Guns,” reference a variety of howdah pistols. One of the earliest mentioned in their book is “made by Westley Richards between 1835 and 1850, [and] was a caplock with a heavy, octagonal, .722 caliber barrel.” Obviously this was one of the earliest Howdah pistols manufactured, before the demand really took off. Through the natural evolution of cartridges, the howdah pistol was later manufactured using pinfire and then centerfire cartridges. As stated earlier, many of these were merely shortened version of their rifle counterparts or would otherwise employ cartridges such as the 577 Boxer which was developed by William Tranter of Birmingham or, later on, the more common 455 Webley.




I have seen many of these howdah pistols over the years and quite a few of them go through the major auctions. It’s quite often that they are found cased or in pairs; especially those of the nicer variety that were most likely bespoke. Many of them are very similar having side by side barrels and an underlever; though occasionally one will see something unique such as an over/under with a side lever like Lancaster made. Perhaps not serving much of a true purpose these days, I still think they are typically great values if one is interested in the history or possible providence of these types of guns. As some would say, “if only these guns could talk…”



https://www.westleyrichards.com/theexplora/the-howdah-pistol-built-for-the-final-charge/

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #365065 - 30/04/22 02:42 AM

I remember an article many decades ago in Guns and Ammo - might even have been an annual, about Howdah pistols.
There was a 12 bore and a 4-barreled Lancaster .577 Snider chambered pistol in the article. Just checked - I no longer have that issue- probably loaned it out? I did find an article on The Return of the .45/70 by Al Miller I set aside to read.

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: DarylS]
      #365092 - 30/04/22 05:08 PM

One of the howdahs pistols above is a .577 Snider. 480 gr lead bullet pushed by 70 grs black powder.

The other a .360 No.5. Not sure what bullet and charge? A large room cartridge?

The .577 Snider's 480 gr 70ngr BP imo makes a .45/70 a good modern substitute.

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #365093 - 30/04/22 05:21 PM


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.360_No_5_Rook


The .360 No 5 Rook is a straight rimmed cartridge originally designed for hunting small game and target shooting in rook rifles, although it was also used as a pistol cartridge.[1]

The .360 No 5 Rook was introduced between 1875 and 1880 by lengthening the older .380 Long cartridge.[2] This cartridge was initially available in both 134 gr (8.7 g) rifle loadings and 125 gr (8.1 g) pistol loadings, both cartridges being interchangeable.[2] Shot and blank cartridges were also available.[1]

As with other rook rifle cartridges, the .360 No 5 Rook was superseded as a small game hunting and target cartridge by the .22 Long Rifle.[3]


Case type
Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter
.362 in (9.2 mm)
Neck diameter
.375 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter
.380 in (9.7 mm)
Rim diameter
.432 in (11.0 mm)
Case length
1.05 in (27 mm)
Overall length
1.45 in (37 mm)
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
82 gr (5 g) Lead UNK UNK
125 gr (8 g) Lead 1,050 ft/s (320 m/s) 310 ft⋅lbf (420 J)
134 gr (9 g) Lead 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s) 312 ft⋅lbf (423 J)
145 gr (9 g) Lead 1,075 ft/s (328 m/s) 373 ft⋅lbf (506 J


TAGS: #howdahs #howdahballistics

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Edited by NitroX (30/09/23 03:47 PM)


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #365094 - 30/04/22 05:36 PM

The .577 Snider cartridge was a British black powder metallic cartridge, which fired a 14.7-millimetre (0.577 in), 31-gram (480 gr) lead projectile, primarily used in the Snider–Enfield rifle.

.577 Snider




Snider-Martini-Enfield Cartridges.JPG
(From Left to Right): A .577 Snider cartridge, a Zulu War–era rolled brass foil .577/450 Martini–Henry Cartridge, a later drawn brass .577/450 Martini–Henry cartridge, and a .303 British Mk VII SAA Ball cartridge


Type
Military
Place of origin
Britain
Service history
Used by
British
Production history
Produced
1867
Specifications
Bullet diameter
.570 in (14.5 mm)
Neck diameter
.602 in (15.3 mm)
Base diameter
.660 in (16.8 mm)
Rim diameter
.747 in (19.0 mm)
Rim thickness
.065 in (1.7 mm)
Case length
2.0 in (51 mm)
Overall length
2.45 in (62 mm)
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
450 gr (29 g) lead 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 1,689 ft⋅lbf (2,290 J)
Source(s): The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, by John J. Donnelly, Stoeger Publishing, 1987, ISBN 978-0-88317-269-8. p. 686.

Early .577 Snider cartridges were made from a composite design using paper and brass foil with a stamped metallic base and primer, much like the first generation of Martini-Henry cartridges. Later cartridges (after the design had been proved with the Martini-Henry cartridges) were made from drawn brass, much like modern small arms ammunition. The .577 Snider cartridge was eventually replaced in service by the .577/450 Martini–Henry cartridge in the 1870s. The .577 Snider cartridge is considered by most commentators to be obsolete, with large scale commercial production having ceased in the 1930s. However, as of 2012, cases, bullets and cartridges as well as others of the .577 family are available from Tenbury Guns Limited (company dissolved 31 May 2016) in the United Kingdom. New brass can be formed from a 24 gauge hull and reloading dies are available from Lee. As of 2015, Kynamco Kynoch in the United Kingdom and Bertram in Australia are also producing ready-made brass.[citation needed]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Snider

TAGS: #howdahs #howdahballistics

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Edited by NitroX (30/09/23 03:46 PM)


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #365106 - 01/05/22 03:08 AM

My Bro's Snider Carbine has a .560" groove diameter, iirc. I don't think he's shot it yet. That is something we must remedy.

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #379753 - 30/09/23 03:18 PM

Quote:

The .577 Snider cartridge was a British black powder metallic cartridge, which fired a 14.7-millimetre (0.577 in), 31-gram (480 gr) lead projectile, primarily used in the Snider–Enfield rifle.

.577 Snider




Snider-Martini-Enfield Cartridges.JPG
(From Left to Right): A .577 Snider cartridge, a Zulu War–era rolled brass foil .577/450 Martini–Henry Cartridge, a later drawn brass .577/450 Martini–Henry cartridge, and a .303 British Mk VII SAA Ball cartridge


Type
Military
Place of origin
Britain
Service history
Used by
British
Production history
Produced
1867
Specifications
Bullet diameter
.570 in (14.5 mm)
Neck diameter
.602 in (15.3 mm)
Base diameter
.660 in (16.8 mm)
Rim diameter
.747 in (19.0 mm)
Rim thickness
.065 in (1.7 mm)
Case length
2.0 in (51 mm)
Overall length
2.45 in (62 mm)
Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
450 gr (29 g) lead 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 1,689 ft⋅lbf (2,290 J)
Source(s): The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, by John J. Donnelly, Stoeger Publishing, 1987, ISBN 978-0-88317-269-8. p. 686.

Early .577 Snider cartridges were made from a composite design using paper and brass foil with a stamped metallic base and primer, much like the first generation of Martini-Henry cartridges. Later cartridges (after the design had been proved with the Martini-Henry cartridges) were made from drawn brass, much like modern small arms ammunition. The .577 Snider cartridge was eventually replaced in service by the .577/450 Martini–Henry cartridge in the 1870s. The .577 Snider cartridge is considered by most commentators to be obsolete, with large scale commercial production having ceased in the 1930s. However, as of 2012, cases, bullets and cartridges as well as others of the .577 family are available from Tenbury Guns Limited (company dissolved 31 May 2016) in the United Kingdom. New brass can be formed from a 24 gauge hull and reloading dies are available from Lee. As of 2015, Kynamco Kynoch in the United Kingdom and Bertram in Australia are also producing ready-made brass.[citation needed]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Snider




Useful information .

Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
450 gr (29 g) lead 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 1,689 ft⋅lbf (2,290 J)

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degoins
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382290 - 03/02/24 10:43 AM

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...102583163#mob-1

Here's a beauty for sale right now....oh if if I was only rich


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: degoins]
      #382298 - 03/02/24 10:47 PM

Quote:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...102583163#mob-1

Here's a beauty for sale right now....oh if if I was only rich




Wow! I want.

What cartridge is it? What is a .577 Boxer?

A .577 Snider Boxer primed cartridge?

A Google search may indicate ac.577 Boxer, a .577 Tranter Revolver cartridge?

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/577-caliber-tranter-revolver/


Left: .45 ACP
Right: .577 Tranter
.577 caliber Tranter Revolver

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382299 - 03/02/24 11:10 PM

Quote:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...102583163#mob-1

Here's a beauty for sale right now....oh if if I was only rich




Tipping & Lawden, Oxford Street, London --- Hammer Underlever Sidelock Howdah Pistol with Detachable Shoulder Stock --- .577 Boxer for sale

Guns International #: 102583163

Guns International #: 102583163
Category
Howdah Pistols
Handguns - English Pistols
Seller's Information
When emailing or calling sellers direct, please mention that you saw their listing on GunsInternational.com
Verified Seller
Seller: Hallowell & Co.
Company: Hallowell & Co.
Member Since: 3/16/07
First Name: Morris
Last Name: Hallowell
State: Montana
Zip: 59047
Country: United States
Phone: (406) 222-4770
Active Listings: 123
Total Listings: 1445
Seller Type:FFL Dealer
Return Policy: 3 day inspection and return policy on used guns and accessories.
...from arrival at receiving transfer dealer's location, non-firing and non-disassembly. Layaways: 1/3 down with balance due in 60 days. No returns or cancellations on layaways.
Payment Methods: Bank checks, money orders & wire transfers; Personal & company checks after a week to clear.
Tipping & Lawden, Oxford Street, London --- Hammer Underlever Sidelock Howdah Pistol with Detachable Shoulder Stock --- .577 Boxer

Description:
8 1/2" SxS damascus shoe-lump barrels with smooth flat rib and bead front sight. Light scroll engraved receiver with rebounding hammers and Jones underlever. Figured walnut stocks with point-pattern checkering, keyed forend with horn tip, steel buttcap with lanyard loop. Detachable shoulder stock of highly figured walnut with smooth steel buttplate and brass attachment fittings. Retaining 85% barrel brown and 50% casehardening colors. Fine bores.

Price: $18,500.00

Curio/Relic: Yes
Antique: Yes
Manufacturer: Tipping & Lawden
Model: Hammer Underlever Sidelock Howdah Pistol with Detachable Shoulder Stock
Serial Number: 765
Barrel Length: 8 1/2
Condition: Fine
Barrel Type: Side-by-Side
Butt Pad: Smooth steel buttplate


https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=102583163


























Edited by NitroX (05/02/24 06:23 PM)


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degoins
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382308 - 04/02/24 08:54 AM

Ross Seyfried did an article featuring a .577 Tranter revolver several years ago in one of the gun rags. Very cool as per usual for him.

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: degoins]
      #382309 - 04/02/24 09:07 AM

Years ago, G&Ammo Annual did an article on Howdah Pistols. Among them, was a 4 barrel by Lancaster chambered in .577 Snider.(2 above 2)
As well was a SxS 12 bore taking the 2 1/2" ctg.

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: DarylS]
      #382317 - 04/02/24 05:30 PM

I've seen .577 Snider mentioned.

Also .577 Eley. I don't know what that is.

One website discussion mentioned three lengths based on the .577 Snider case.

But one must be very careful about internet discussions and sites because some just repeat stuff and make up stuff and opinion as fact. One discussion mentioned "tens of thousands of howdah pistol images" all " .577 case pistols". Now dudes looking up NitroExpress.com might believe there are huge numbers of howdah images floating around the internet, but that is simply not true. Else point the to me please so we can collect them. One of these discussions. Two of the participants are simply making up stuff, opinion and conjecture as fact. No doubt others will repeat some of this bullshit.

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Edited by NitroX (05/02/24 05:29 PM)


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382332 - 05/02/24 04:24 AM

I have heard of 2 different case lengths on the Snider, back years ago when Taylor bought the first of the 3 he has. The shorter one was a Canadian loading, I think. I do not know the reason why.

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93x64mm
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: DarylS]
      #382335 - 05/02/24 07:10 AM

Quote:

I have heard of 2 different case lengths on the Snider, back years ago when Taylor bought the first of the 3 he has. The shorter one was a Canadian loading, I think. I do not know the reason why.




That would be interesting to see Daryl if you still have that info of course!
I suppose it could have been a cut down case loaded into the original chamber so as a more modest loading for perhaps younger shooters?


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora *DELETED* [Re: 93x64mm]
      #382337 - 05/02/24 11:44 AM

Post deleted by DarylS

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: DarylS]
      #382338 - 05/02/24 11:47 AM

Also found this contact for brass:

https://everythingold.ca/products/unprim...cartridge-brass

--------------------
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: DarylS]
      #382339 - 05/02/24 01:59 PM

Currently for sale on our Trade Me auction site are lead bullets for the 577 Snider and newly made 577/450 cases. The seller occasionally advertises new 577 Snider cases too as shown in the image with the lead bullets.
The cases are formed from 12 gauge brass shotgun cases.

From the seller - "This auction is for 20x .575 lead 'minie' projectiles. These are great for loading into newly sized snider brass or to go into your .577 muzzle loader as the minie base, or skirt,
is designed to expand and tightly fit the rifling when fired.

Made from pure soft lead. These are good option for fire forming snider brass before using a larger bullet such as the .600 flat base projectile I also stock."




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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: eagle27]
      #382344 - 05/02/24 04:43 PM





Interesting to see a Howdah pistol fitted with a detachable shoulder stock.

I wonder how it affects shooting. While still short, it does make it less handy for top of elephant tiger defence. But the stock can be removed. The stock fitted might make it more versatile.

A shoulder stocked howdah pistol if it shoots any sort of regulation, becomes effectively a very short double rifle in .577 Snider.

I'm thinking fitting a shoulder stock makes sense for a lot of handguns.

--------------------
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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Edited by NitroX (05/02/24 06:23 PM)


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382346 - 05/02/24 05:26 PM

Quote:

I've seen .577 Snider mentioned.

Also .577 Eley. I don't know what that is.






imho, .577 Eley is another name for the .577 Tranter

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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: eagle27]
      #382354 - 06/02/24 05:11 AM

Quote:

Currently for sale on our Trade Me auction site are lead bullets for the 577 Snider and newly made 577/450 cases. The seller occasionally advertises new 577 Snider cases too as shown in the image with the lead bullets.
The cases are formed from 12 gauge brass shotgun cases.

From the seller - "This auction is for 20x .575 lead 'minie' projectiles. These are great for loading into newly sized snider brass or to go into your .577 muzzle loader as the minie base, or skirt,
is designed to expand and tightly fit the rifling when fired.

Made from pure soft lead. These are good option for fire forming snider brass before using a larger bullet such as the .600 flat base projectile I also stock."





Are you sure they aren't made from 24 bore shells?

--------------------
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: DarylS]
      #382375 - 06/02/24 08:35 PM

To my knowledge, a lot of Howdah pistols had rifled barrels. I almost bid on a Howdah pistol in Italy. It was a good price. But then found out the barrels were smooth bore. After paying Holts to pick it up, and transport to Australia, permits etc, it would have cost way too much for a smooth bore.

I've never seen any testing of a Howdah for regulation and accuracy. Has anyone else?

They were for point shooting at very close range. Aiming at a 5 yard target, point shooting would work pretty well. Some net discussions and participants think the Howdah pistols were used for actual hunting. Shooting at animals from the elephant back at ground targets. The rare shortish Howdah rifles, yes. But I doubt the pistols were used purposely much for non defence hunting at ground targets. Am I wrong?

This shoulder butt stock Howdah pistol may indicate otherwise? Someone wanted to improve the pistol beyond a mere close quarters pointing pistol. If it shoots well with the stock fitted it would be a very useful and handy addition in the Howdah platform or even on foot.

Now if a standard rifled Howdah pistol is of questionable regulation and accuracy? I wonder if a smooth bore Howdah isn't of more use. It could be used for ball, or for shot. Bird shot for the odd bird. Letter shot for bigger and very close defence. Ball for the same.

I think the earlier muzzle loading Howdah pistols might have been more likely smooth bores?

The Howdah pistol I think owes its origins to the muzzle loading era. A long arm or two. Single barrelled or double barrelled. If a hunter sitting in his Howdah saddle, has fired off his two barrels of his muzzle loading rifle or shotgun, muzzle loading it could be a chore in a howdah. And take way too long. You've fired your too barrels at a tiger and need more shots. A pistol hanging on the side of the Howdah or in a scabbard, would provide handy additional shots. If the tiger has leapt on top of the elephant, even more handy and necessary.

I think a smooth bore Howdah pistol with a shoulder stock fitted would make a handy shorter range shotgun. Similar to a good old sawn off shotgun. A bit shorter than a coach gun. If legal?

I wonder howv often tigers did leap on top of the elephants' backs? Quite often is my guess, the tiger has a big heart, ferocious when threatened or wounded. We even have a couple of modern videos of tigers jumping on top of elephants ridden with people on top, viewing tigers. In one of the videos, the mahout lost a leg from the attack.

I've ridden elephants in tiger country. Viewing a tiger or two lying hiding under a thorn bush it wasn't happy, Almost underneath us, growling and looking up, A hundred or so tourists on the road got elephant rides on a couple of elephant the hundred or so yards into the jungle to where it was lying up. By the end I think it would have been very unhappy.

So I think wounded tigers leaping onto a elephant might not have been uncommon, if simple tourist or working elephants have provoked an attack. Perhaps a mum defending her young. Or a tiger defending a kill. Both are still common causes of fatal human/tiger interactions.



But why would a maker rifle those bores without ensuring decent handgun accuracy and also some regulation of the barrels?

I need these questions answered, anyone?

If I ever acquire one or more, I certainly test it out.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382376 - 06/02/24 09:06 PM

Quote:


I think a smooth bore Howdah pistol with a shoulder stock fitted would make a handy shorter range shotgun. Similar to a good old sawn off shotgun. A bit shorter than a coach gun. If legal.




Now if a smooth bore howdah pistol could be made from a shotgun, a 24 bore, 16 bore, 12 bore sudd by side shotgun in theory could easily be used to make one. A 12 bore shotgun with hamners, barrels cut shorter, bead replaced. A smaller forend made of the existing forend. A pistol grip added.

Regulation? Would need to be tested. It might need to be deregulated, Especially for shooting ball or slugs. Shooting SGs or SSGs, effective at close range. Smaller shot of bird shot, rabbits and birds?

Add a detachable shoulder stock, how handy would that be!

A 16 bore would be more handy. A 24 bore close to an original .577 calibre and just as effective with ball

If ffffing legal ...

***

One point to add.

Most shotguns MIGHT NOT be suitable for Howdah pistol conversion. The actions extend too far back in a straight line for conversion to a curved pistol grip and the required shorter trigger pull length.

Howdah pistols are NOT shotgun actions! The rear of the action is curved downwards.

The Pedersoli Howdah breech loader in .45 LC or .410 has that extremely aweful grip to compensate for using the shotgun action, where the rear of the action prevents a usual curved pistol grip. the trigger pull length would be too great.

But I wonder? Just saw a sawn off shotgun with a butt stock sawn off to the pistol grip on a TV crime show advert. If these work, why not on a Howdah? Am in deluded and my thinking wrong?

I refer again to that net howdah discussion where the pleb experts state as fact that all howdah pistols use shotgun actions. They may look similar to the plebisn mind, but howdah pistol actions have usually been specifically made for purpose. IMO and from examining the actions. .

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382754 - 22/02/24 03:21 AM

A pair of matched muzzle loading double barrelled pistols. Howdah pistols or gentlemen's coach pistols. Unusually with single triggers.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Howdah pistol, built for the charge - The Explora [Re: NitroX]
      #382755 - 22/02/24 04:05 AM

Nice brace of self-defense pistols. A little short in the barrel for Howdah pistols, I think.
Handy size, though & with those safeties, carried cocked.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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