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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle
#364821 - 22/04/22 08:19 PM

18 bore, two groove rifle that needs a small amount of restoration. This should be a fun one.

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CptCurl
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#364822 - 22/04/22 08:55 PM

Nice!

Curly

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: CptCurl]
#364823 - 22/04/22 08:57 PM

Two-groove rifling as well as oval bore were invented in 1832 by then captain Carl W.E. Berner (1785 – 1862), Duke of Brunswick’s foot guards, jaeger company. His original design had an oval bore, soon modified to two distinctive grooves. In 1837 Berner’s two-groove rifling was adopted by the British military as a feature of their “Brunswick rifle”.

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: kuduae]
#364826 - 22/04/22 10:51 PM

from the books:

1849 2ft 8in barrels 'thin patch' sold to J. Drummond.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#364832 - 23/04/22 02:24 AM

Cool. 18 bore, roughly .64".
How much windage with the bullets? This will determine the patch thickness (compressed).
6oz. denim .015" 8 ounce .018" 10 ounce .021".
These measurements depend on the manufacturer of the cloth to some extent.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: DarylS]
#364844 - 23/04/22 08:10 AM

The rife will not be with me until this summer, it is still in the UK. I will measure the projectiles to get an idea of what thickness patch to use. Without throwing it on a scale first to see what the gun weighs, my guess is that it is a 3-4 dram rifle but I will see.

The quality of Lancaster guns from the percussion period is superb, I'm excited to get it.

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LRF
.333 member

Reged: 28/03/11
Posts: 351
Loc: minnesota ,usa

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#364850 - 23/04/22 07:40 PM

Very nice rifle Steven and I certainly can understand your excitement to be getting it.
On subject but from a different angle what fascinates me is what the rifling head and cutter looked like. In the mid-19th century machining/manufacturing, albeit skilled and precise, was archaic compared with 20th and now 21st century machining. Even at very light cuts the size and shape of the rifling grooves would require a fair amount of cutting force to scrape them out. And in the days prior to high speed steel tool sharpening and maintenance would be quite time consuming and a big deal.
And along the lines are the tools used for cutting the mold. The cherry shape needed to cut the mold cavity would be unique and fragile to cut the long sprue stem. If you have ever cut bullet molds you will understand my awhh at the machinists skill.

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DarylS
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Posts: 26998
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Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: LRF]
#364854 - 24/04/22 01:55 AM

The crown has a nicely radiused shape as well, to help fold the cloth and mould the slug into the bore.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: DarylS]
#371720 - 22/11/22 09:12 AM

The rifle arrived a while back and I'm just getting around to playing with it. It is a nice rifle that still needs a bit of love. Some small wood repairs were required, I fashioned up a temporary Hickory ramrod until I get the time to make a proper ebony replacement, a new nipple was fit to the oddball threads(.235"x32tpi), I lucked out and the barrel key was there so I thought I was ready to give it a go, not quite. The thinnest patch material I had on hand was .010" and that was just too thick. Some .005" pre-lubed patches are headed my way. It is a much lighter weight rifle than my Wm. Moore 14 bore 2 groove rifle, it weighs 6&3/4 lbs. The rifle is bored tighter than expected as well, the bullets drop at right around .620". I'm thinking 2&1/2 to 3 drams max.

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DarylS
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Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#371723 - 22/11/22 11:26 AM

What is the actual bore and groove diameter?
I am surprised that .010" is too thick.
Dark stained green or purple heart was also used. Ramin would also stain well.
Rosewood as well, but unlikely stain well due to the oil content.
Osage makes a WONDERFUL rod.
Can you measure the rate of twist? (patch on jag) .620 is between 19 and 20 bore.
Might have to use a card or felt barrier wad under the patched slug if you can't even use a .0210" patch

Ballistic Products sells a dry 20 bore X 1/4" felt wad that measures about .626" in diameter. It's difficult as it compresses very easily.
Soaked in BP bullet lube like SPG compressed & hardened might help. Lyman BP Gold as well as well as 60% BW:40%
Vaseline is also a good Black Powder bullet lube.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: DarylS]
#371730 - 23/11/22 01:57 AM

I misstated the bullet diameter, bore diameter is right around .620", bullet is smaller. I have not checked twist rate or groove diameter since I have the mould. Lubed felt patches and hard wads are both on hand. I have a long enough section of Ebony to make a proper rod but just don't have the time to make one before I hope to hunt this rifle in December.

I may need a help group...3 more British percussion rifles are on the way, 2 Purdey's(.50 cal and a 16 bore) and a Westley Richards(.50 cal).

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Edited by bouldersmith (23/11/22 01:58 AM)

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3DogMike
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#371764 - 24/11/22 12:51 PM

Quote:

I misstated the……..(snip)…..
I may need a help group...3 more British percussion rifles are on the way, 2 Purdey's(.50 cal and a 16 bore) and a Westley Richards(.50 cal).

Hmmm…….comment aimed at anyone in particular?

- Mike

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
#386358 - 15/08/24 10:33 AM

So still no love getting this rifle loaded. I finally got around to getting the hammer engraved, built a ramrod and took it to the range with high hopes and some .005" patches. I still could not get a bullet down the bore, much better than the .010" patches but still way, way too tight.

I am toying with the possibilities in my head. The rifle may well have been supplied with a cross patch cutter and or a bullet sizing tool.

My next step is to try to paper patched a bullet or two, that would be the easy way. If that does not work I may make a sizing die, if the bullet was just a couple of thousandths smaller I think I would be in business.

I'm somewhat surprised that the bullets thrown from the original mold are giving me this much trouble. I know the gun left Lancaster's shop shooting bullets out of that mold, I just need to work out how that did it.

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#386374 - 15/08/24 09:05 PM

Quote:

So still no love getting this rifle loaded. I finally got around to getting the hammer engraved, built a ramrod and took it to the range with high hopes and some .005" patches. I still could not get a bullet down the bore, much better than the .010" patches but still way, way too tight.

I am toying with the possibilities in my head. The rifle may well have been supplied with a cross patch cutter and or a bullet sizing tool.

My next step is to try to paper patched a bullet or two, that would be the easy way. If that does not work I may make a sizing die, if the bullet was just a couple of thousandths smaller I think I would be in business.

I'm somewhat surprised that the bullets thrown from the original mold are giving me this much trouble. I know the gun left Lancaster's shop shooting bullets out of that mold, I just need to work out how that did it.

Bugger!
I was wondering about the type of 'lead' used, was it harder lead (alloy) that when cast was smaller than mould size?

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
#386376 - 15/08/24 11:03 PM

Pure lead in these bullets.

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#386383 - 16/08/24 05:50 AM

Just looked it up & PURE lead shrinks the most - Lino the least!
Got that wrong didn't I!
Hope the PP works for you mate, it might be the only way around this issue apart for using the wife tea-towels as patches!

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
#386385 - 16/08/24 10:37 AM

Bore is .632", bullets at .624", it is going to need a thin patch.

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DarylS
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Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#386386 - 16/08/24 12:13 PM

Trouble with thin patches, they aren't very tough and hold very little lube to soften fouling to allow the next slug to be loaded.
A greased (BP lube) felt wad between the patched bullet and powder would help.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bouldersmith
.375 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: DarylS]
#386391 - 16/08/24 11:17 PM

Yes, I always use a lubricated felt wad over the powder. Another shooter of two groove rifles mentioned that he encounter a similar situation with his rifle and it's original mold, his solution was to use silk for patch material. I'll add that to my list of things to try to get this one up and shooting. A few more pics, the sprue has been cut but not shaved flush before I took the pic.

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DarylS
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Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#386392 - 17/08/24 12:37 AM

Good looking rifle.
The sprue can be easily removed with a pair of plyer's type wire stripper, with the little cut outs for difference diameter wire.
Using a moderate set of holes, pinch in 1/2 way, then twist/turn the bullet in the fingers. The sprue will cut off flush, or leave just a tiny pointed tit that can be touched with the flat side of the cutter's jaws, making it disappear.
I do this with my Tanner moulds that have no cut off.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: DarylS]
#386431 - 21/08/24 03:50 AM

Very encouraged by the first few paper patched rounds, 25 yds, off the hood of the truck, blazing hot out, still not bad. The paper patched bullets were wet patched and dried, then coated with Rooster Jacket and left to dry again, they measured right at bore diameter, .632". The load was 2&1/2 drams or 70 grains of 1&1/2F Swiss, topped with a bore diameter lubricated felt wad(Wonder Wad) seated firmly on the powder charge, the bullet was then seated. All three shots in the bull, under 2" and I was never really settled in today. I might have the load down. More shooting in the evenings the next couple weeks to try to beat the heat and get the gun completely dialed in. I'm quite happy with today's outing.

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93x64mm
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Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Charles Lancaster percussion sporting rifle [Re: bouldersmith]
#386432 - 21/08/24 06:00 AM

Sounds like you've got a pretty good load for starters! Trying to shoot off a hot truck is not conclusive to accuracy!

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