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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag.
      #364646 - 16/04/22 02:26 AM


Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag.

We settle the 10mm vs 44 Mag. debate—and wreck our hands in the process

BY JOHN B. SNOW | PUBLISHED APR 14, 2022 1:07 PM

https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/10mm-vs...L44l7lPfwANochI

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3DogMike
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364647 - 16/04/22 04:12 AM

Noted with interest that the writer did not test either one with available "real" bear defense loads (ie Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman or similar).

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 3DogMike]
      #364648 - 16/04/22 05:14 AM

Quote:

Noted with interest that the writer did not test either one with available "real" bear defense loads (ie Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman or similar).

- Mike




Agreed.. BUT, I do know someone who did.. Phil Shoemaker out of Alaska.. with a 9mm .. buffalo bore 147 gr --killed a charging sow griz at very close proximity..

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...ith-9mm-pistol/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (16/04/22 05:15 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364650 - 16/04/22 09:22 AM

Rifled 12 bore 24" bl. Mossy - Challenger Ammo - 496gr. Gualandi @ 1,610fps - my bear defense round.
Can't carry, so the article & the video while interesting, was of little import here.
If I could, I would carry my 4" M29, thanks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: DarylS]
      #364653 - 16/04/22 12:10 PM

Quote:

Rifled 12 bore 24" bl. Mossy - Challenger Ammo - 496gr. Gualandi @ 1,610fps - my bear defense round.
Can't carry, so the article & the video while interesting, was of little import here.
If I could, I would carry my 4" M29, thanks.




What a pathetic world in which we live in certain areas, IMHO.. Can't carry a handgun in the bush for self protection.... So wrong in so many ways..

--------------------
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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364658 - 16/04/22 10:08 PM

Try living in a country where you can't own anything for the purpose of self defence, let alone using a handgun outside of a range.
I know I would still choose a 44mag, I can guarantee you when a bear was charging I wouldn't feel any recoil.
I like the revolver because it is, simpler and nothing ever goes wrong with them unless they are very badly maintained. Good for all weather and all conditions.
I know, modern autos are reliable but in extreme conditions I'd still feel safer with a good revolver, and if you find yourself stuck for whatever reason you can still hunt well with it.

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364666 - 17/04/22 01:18 AM

Quote:

Try living in a country where you can't own anything for the purpose of self defence, let alone using a handgun outside of a range.-- NO THANK YOU...

--
I know I would still choose a 44mag, I can guarantee you when a bear was charging I wouldn't feel any recoil... == AGREE --also my choice.. and yes, I would be more likely to feel the soiling of my pants vs the recoil..

--
I like the revolver because it is, simpler and nothing ever goes wrong with them unless they are very badly maintained. Good for all weather and all conditions.
I know, modern autos are reliable but in extreme conditions I'd still feel safer with a good revolver, and if you find yourself stuck for whatever reason you can still hunt well with it.



--

I have to admit, after seeing Phil's results with the 9mm and the energy the 10mm puts out in Buffalo Bore ammo.. I feel a lot more safe with a 10mm in hand in Griz country than I used to.. NO ONE I KNOW has more experience than Phil when it comes to big bears..

The 10mm is perfectly capable of taking deer sized game.. especially with the correct ammo..

I currently own 3- 10mm handguns.. but, own at least 5 or 6 --44 mags, along with a 454 Casull, so, in my books, the 44 mag is still the most popular..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364670 - 17/04/22 01:58 AM

Yeah we tested bear handguns for best defence on stationary paper targets .... Are they for real? Wtf?

As for the light 44 revolver, no one shoots a gun well if they are afraid of it ..

Why aren't .357 mag revolvers used?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364671 - 17/04/22 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Rifled 12 bore 24" bl. Mossy - Challenger Ammo - 496gr. Gualandi @ 1,610fps - my bear defense round.
Can't carry, so the article & the video while interesting, was of little import here.
If I could, I would carry my 4" M29, thanks.




What a pathetic world in which we live in certain areas, IMHO.. Can't carry a handgun in the bush for self protection.... So wrong in so many ways..




Yep Australia as well.

Some "cowboys" can carry a handgun. Not for self defence. But for putting down injured cows. The assumption is they can't carry a rifle.


One of our Aussie PHs on NE used to legally be able to carry a handgun. For last ditch self defence against wild bovines.was not allowed to hunt with it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364672 - 17/04/22 02:04 AM

In bear country I would carry what I had access to.

I still think a .58 Snider howdah pistol would be very useful. ???

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364675 - 17/04/22 02:33 AM

Quote:

Yeah we tested bear handguns for best defence on stationary paper targets .... Are they for real? Wtf?

As for the light 44 revolver, no one shoots a gun well if they are afraid of it ..

Why aren't .357 mag revolvers used?




The .357 question is a good one. Here in BC, perhaps not any more, but trappers and big game guides could get permits to carry a handgun for defense against dangerous animals. The "dangerous animal" being bears.

The minimum was .357 factory ammo level FPE, & they included the 10mm auto with it.
Most testing (there is a "test" performed by selected individuals) to access the skill of the licensee, however when the person is seeking license to use a .357, .38 SPL ammo is allowed, 10mm - 10S&W is allowed(not sure how that can work), .44 mag., .44 Spl. ammo is allowed and with .454 Casul, .45 Colt is allowed - by some testers. The gvt. allows this, but says one stage of the testing must be done with full powdered ammo.
I was selected by the club to test a local person, but told him he had to use full power ammo. He was 'tested" by the "other" local guy, bit of a dick, who allows the use of weak ammo.
I figure that a fellow should be able to & have to shoot what he's going to use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364684 - 17/04/22 10:23 AM

Quote:

Yeah we tested bear handguns for best defence on stationary paper targets .... Are they for real? Wtf? quote]



I guess I don't understand your first question above??

Handguns are not the nest choice but they do work..and proven to work every hear..

--------------------
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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364685 - 17/04/22 01:49 PM

I'd still rather a 357mag revolver with the buffalo bore ammunition if I could get it then a 10mm auto.
I would just feel more reassured in a harsh climate and conditions like that with a wheel gun then an auto.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364690 - 17/04/22 04:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yeah we tested bear handguns for best defence on stationary paper targets .... Are they for real? Wtf? quote]



I guess I don't understand your first question above??

Handguns are not the nest choice but they do work..and proven to work every hear..




They tested handguns on whether they are good bear self defence guns ... By shooting stationary paper targets.

I'm going to do a conclusive test of big bore rifles by shooting a bunch of paper targets .... How ridiculous does that sound?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: 260rem]
      #364691 - 17/04/22 04:34 PM

Quote:

I'd still rather a 357mag revolver with the buffalo bore ammunition if I could get it then a 10mm auto.
I would just feel more reassured in a harsh climate and conditions like that with a wheel gun then an auto.




I remember reading an article analysing thecresults of a considerable number of bear attacks and it seemed concludable that almost any handgun was beneficial. If the user could actually shoot it and hit the bear. The bear attack wascthen far more survivable. The thread is here on NE somewhere.

African Hunter magazine did elephant skull / elephant testing and found the .357 penetrated the best.

Completely from the armchair ! I think a decent .357 in a usuable revolver would becfar better than some light .44 mag one is scared of shooting.

I'm sure shooting paper targets would confirm !!! Ha ha.

Btw John B. Snow? Is that a pen name?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364698 - 17/04/22 05:11 PM

I've never placed that much faith in paper targets, or gongs for that matter.

I would rather hunt some pigs with a handgun for a more realistic approach to a real live situation.
When I bought my 1st 375H&H and 458lott I practiced on rabbits, I figured any range I could take a rabbit out with them at then I could definitely take something bigger at.
I did the same with my bows, a rabbit is definitely the size of a, kill zone on a pig or deer let alone anything bigger so they make the perfect if sometimes mess real world targets.
Crows work too, if you can hit a crow then you can hit the vitals on big game, and hitting a crow with a 485lott is a great way to make them disappear in a cloud of feathers.

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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364720 - 18/04/22 04:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd still rather a 357mag revolver with the buffalo bore ammunition if I could get it then a 10mm auto.
I would just feel more reassured in a harsh climate and conditions like that with a wheel gun then an auto.




I remember reading an article analysing thecresults of a considerable number of bear attacks and it seemed concludable that almost any handgun was beneficial. If the user could actually shoot it and hit the bear. The bear attack wascthen far more survivable. The thread is here on NE somewhere.

African Hunter magazine did elephant skull / elephant testing and found the .357 penetrated the best.

Completely from the armchair ! I think a decent .357 in a usuable revolver would becfar better than some light .44 mag one is scared of shooting.

I'm sure shooting paper targets would confirm !!! Ha ha.

Btw John B. Snow? Is that a pen name?




I am not sure why those guys were scared or felt the recoil abusive from that lightweight ..I have the exact same model I carry with me a lot..have shot buffalo bore out if it..while the recoil is no doubt stout..it's hardly something to fear..

I remember that article in the effectiveness of handguns on bears..I also remember the article stating the .357 was the most frequently used caliber on bears..which surprised me..if I remember correctly, I or Daryl had posted that..Agree a good hard cast bullet out of a .357 is a formidable weapon..if given the choice. I'll stick take the .44 Mag

As to trustworthy of a revolver vs a semi-auto..I have never had a glock fail..ever..in fact I have a good friend who worked for a branch of the gov who was given the task of attempting a model 19 Glock to not fire under normal to adverse day to day conditions..Was given all one ammo and one month..he never got it to not fire...sounds unbelievable I admit..but he has nothing to gain by lying..and is not a huge Glock fan..plus I trust him...so take that for what it's worth..

Having said all that, I still prefer a big revolver in griz country than a semi myself

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364729 - 18/04/22 05:26 PM

I'll also certainly get a .357 revolver one day.

I'd love a .45 Colt. Might have to join a western type shooting club to get one. And probably need to shoot some sort of metal silhouette targets, needed to justify greater than 9mm, .38 here in SA. AV.44 mag might be possible for the same?

I don't like the attitude of a specialist gun for emergencies.it goes against the grain and lesson that when thecshit hits, you'd better be familiar with what you want to use. When I have had minor emergencies, a big deer "charge" me! Not really hevran uphill pass me. I fumbled reloading my .30-06. I have double discharged my .450 facing elephant the first. Not good. But the triggers were an issue, since fixed. My .375's magazine needs to reloaded by pushing cartridges in backwards and down. I am aware of this. JB wasn't and in the heat of a hunt he had trouble recharging the magazine. Not his fault, I should have instructed him better. He wasn't familiar with my rifle.

So the point is, be familiar and experienced with ones weapons for self defence. In this case a handgun for bears.

As 260 says, practice with a firearm in ferals is great practice. Of course handguns can't be used for such, but that would be great practice.

One thing I find unusual in these bear discussions is the spray and pray attitude. That's the gist of the semi auto vs .44 revolver argument, isn't it? Those big bad bears come so fast, one had to pray and fire as many times as one can! Interesting when one talks about safari firearms, the opposite is the norm. If facing charging lion, one of two effective shots. Leopard, hope for the best! Buffalo, adequate power, accurate placement. Elephant, brain shot, massive power.

Not, "we need a semi auto, pull the trigger as often as possible, pray you buy something !!!! "

Of course completely from my leather armchair.

But any decent handgun is better than a spraycan. A revolver is more reliable than a semi auto. A .44 Mag or similar, is the big bore rifle equivalent. And being familiar with the SD firearm is essential.

Just academic for me, as I'll be lucky if I ever encounter bears seriously many times. I was in a Transylvanian forest once where there are 90 of so brown bears. No one was armed. Yes I did think about the lack.

By the way just enjoying the discussion. Nothing here serious for me.

And yes a big brown bear up close would be a scary experience.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (18/04/22 05:30 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364734 - 18/04/22 11:24 PM

More discussion material..

https://www.fieldandstream.com/best-brown-bear-and-grizzly-cartridges/

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364738 - 19/04/22 03:07 AM

I've been shooting model 29 S&W 4" since 1973. This is my 3rd .44 Mag. & have had it since 1979.
The "instructor/qualification" officer, then Cpl. Len Grinnel allowed me to use my m29 to shoot our yearly qualification round. That's the first and last time I was able to ace the course 300/300 but would not give me the Crown over crossed revolvers as I had earlier failed to do that with the issue .38. At that time, I was shooting a 275gr. SWC from an Ohaus 4-cavity mould with 21gr. Herc. 2400. These were full power 1,240fps loads & I thought nothing of the recoil then, nor do I today. I still have and use that mould today, however my load has changed, to 17.0gr. AL7 for 1,210fps. Good shooting load in the 4" bl.
I would like a 4 5/8" .45 Colt Ruger, but that will likely never happen with the current state of affairs.
I do have the Ruger Blackhawk with 4 5/8" bl. that I bought in 1974. I sold it to my old Beaufighter Pilot cousin, then reacquired it when he passed in 2003/4.
It's a really good shooting handgun - accurate and easy to shoot accurately. I use a 150gr. SWC from a DC Lee mould mostly in it as well as the SWC 168gr. Keith bullet, but with GC.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364749 - 19/04/22 01:33 PM

Quote:

More discussion material..

https://www.fieldandstream.com/best-brown-bear-and-grizzly-cartridges/




Some good comments after the in article advertising.

Other Considerations for Hunting Grizzlies

The above is, I realize, a short list, and that is not an accident. We’re talking about a very specialized type of hunting. In addition to cartridges, here are some other considerations:

Do not, I pray you, single-load your bear rifle when you sight it in and practice with it. (You are going to practice with it, aren’t you?) A great many bolt-action rifles do not feed worth a barrel of Old Hog Sh*t, and you want to find out in advance if yours is among them. Fill the magazine and see if it cycles.

Similarly, make sure your floorplate doesn’t pop open, since heavy recoil causes bolt-actions to flex through the action. A friend of mine shot a grizzly that was uphill from him, which was a mistake because bears frequently roll, and when it came to a stop only a few yards away and Jack pulled the trigger a second time, he got the click of an empty chamber because his other three rounds were in the tall grass at his feet. He remembered thinking, “Emma [his wife] is going to miss me.” But the bear died before things got any worse. At the minimum, tape your floorplate shut, or have a gunsmith pin it shut.

Keep your reloads where you can get at them. Ursine disputes are not always settled in three shots. You don’t want to discover that your ammo is buried beneath four layers of clothes and your chest waders.

Never, ever, shoot a large-caliber bear just once. This should be a standard practice with any dangerous game. Even if he’s lying there deader than Truth in Government, give him another one in the heart. The taxidermist can patch the holes in the hide. The doctor may not be able to patch the holes in you if he gets up and decides to get even.

Never, ever, walk up on a downed bear with an empty rifle. Reload. Be ready. Approach it from an angle where it can’t see you.

Forget about long shots. If you want to try a 300-yarder at one of these animals, your guide will offer to take you to the airfield and refund your money.

Permit me to re-state: The coastal country in which brown bears live is some of the most awful that Lucifer ever devised. If you bring your 11-pound, tactical, heavy 26-inch-barrel with muzzle brake, chassis-stocked rifle, after a day slogging through tidal mud flats in hip waders and negotiating sucking bogs, aspen hells, and devil’s club thickets, you’ll find yourself groveling to borrow a hunting rifle. Warren Page’s .35 Mashburn had a 20-inch Mannlicher-stocked barrel and weighed 8 pounds, 2 ounces. You could carry it all day.


Quote:

This is for grizzlies, not brown bears.




Why?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364750 - 19/04/22 03:01 PM

Not sure... Buy found this..

https://www.wildrevelation.com/the-difference-between-grizzly-brown-and-kodiak-bears/

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Ripp]
      #364751 - 19/04/22 04:14 PM

Same species. Just different sizes based on the location and sources of food. Armchair expertise.

Can't see why that makes a huge difference for cartridge choice? A .30-06 won't suddenly kill a brown bear? Or was it grizzly?

So many many useful cartridges missed out from the "7", I guess because advertising not paid for them!

A very obvious choice, the Euro 9.3x62. And the American .338/06.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rod4861
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: NitroX]
      #364754 - 19/04/22 07:57 PM

Quote:

Same species. Just different sizes based on the location and sources of food. Armchair expertise.

Can't see why that makes a huge difference for cartridge choice? A .30-06 won't suddenly kill a brown bear? Or was it grizzly?

So many many useful cartridges missed out from the "7", I guess because advertising not paid for them!

A very obvious choice, the Euro 9.3x62. And the American .338/06.




When you’re in the alders and devils club looking for your shot bear you’ll soon understand why a 30/06 may seem a tad light.


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260rem
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Re: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag. [Re: Rod4861]
      #364759 - 19/04/22 08:54 PM

If I was, hunting bear and moose often then I'd go a 9.3x62 or 74R, very mild recoil with plenty of punch and penetration.
I'd still be happy with my 30/06 but if I was in thick country after a, bear I'd want more then one shot.

--------------------
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