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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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FlatTop45
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Rechambering a Double .45/70?
      #363401 - 12/03/22 05:06 PM


Someone else may have asked/answered this question in the past, but I was wondering. Since the cost of a decent double rifle is more than some of us can afford, some have suggested possibly purchasing one of the more affordable priced doubles in .45/70. I am aware opinions differ on the potency of the .45/70, but it's still a .45 caliber. So instead of using over-spec and possibly dangerous hand loads, wouldn't a simple solution be to just re-chamber one to something more powerful like .45/90, .45/100 or even .45/120? Of course, if you did re-chamber to a larger cartridge, you could always use decreased loads or even black powder, but shouldn't a rifle of more recent manufacture be strong enough to handle the pressures of those calibers if they were kept within spec?

Just wondering....



J

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: FlatTop45]
      #363402 - 12/03/22 05:14 PM

Re-regulation would be required if the barrels are fixed/soldered. Regulation is one of the main costs of a non engraved DR.

Alan Moon in NE did his own regulation, resoldering, so it's not impossible for the expert non professional.

If a self adjusted set of non fixed barrels, just adjust the wedges yourself, if the rechambering is safe.

There was a Pedérsoli hammer dr in .45/70 which was rechambered to .450 No. 2 NE. It was sold and resold again and again, multiple times. Why?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (13/03/22 05:23 PM)

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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: NitroX]
      #363422 - 13/03/22 01:00 AM

Flatop
WRT re chambering,
Each rifle should be evaluated individually.

Nitrox asked "There was a Pedérsoli hammer dr in .45/70 which was rechambered to .450 No. 2 NE. It was sold and resold again and again, multiple times. Why?"
WHY indeed? Sounds like a rifle to avoid.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #363429 - 13/03/22 05:22 AM

For anything in NA, the .45/70, even with black powder loads, is more than enough.
Trapdoor Springfield-level loads of up to 28,000psi are more than enough, as they add a good 500fps+ to the BP level velocities.
A fun one to have, would be a .50/70 or even .50/90 in a DR.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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FlatTop45
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: DarylS]
      #363476 - 14/03/22 03:44 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the replies and for allowing me to pick your brains. I personally like the .45/70. As popular as it is here in the U.S., there are many choices in loads normally available commercially, not to mention plenty of published handload data. So, if I were to own a double in that caliber, I don't believe I would see the need to make any changes to it in that regard. Also, I imagine the cost of re-chambering a double, not to mention the expense involved in having the barrels re-regulated (which I had not even considered) could or would possibly cost more than the purchase price of the rifle itself. Also, since I have neither the skill nor the equipment to do such work myself, for me, it would not make any sense to undertake such a project.

Just curious I guess.

Thanks again!




J

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DarylS
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: FlatTop45]
      #363482 - 14/03/22 05:24 AM

Hodgdon's Annual Manual is a treasure for .45/70 loads, giving 3 different sets of data, Trapdoor Spr., Lever guns and modern guns. All data has pressure data with it as well. Of course, the data is only for Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester Powders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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FlatTop45
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: DarylS]
      #363511 - 14/03/22 01:11 PM

Thanks for the tip Daryl! Much appreciated.


J

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50Calshtr
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: FlatTop45]
      #363530 - 15/03/22 01:44 AM

FT45
I see this topic come up every year or so and to be perfectly honest I cringe when I see it. You will gain very little by doing this rechambering unless you intend to shoot black powder. The limiting factor here is the strength of the action and a 45-70 loaded with smokeless can easily exceed the strength of all but a few suitable bolt and single actions. By rechambering to a longer case all you are gaining is air space, which you will probably have to take up with a filler, adding another variable to the equation. Now toss in an expensive set of dies and hard to find cases and the level of complexity has gone way up. As has been mentioned the three levels of 45-70 loads will cover anything in the Americas and some will say the world. Action strength will limit you to the lower and possibly the mid-level loads. I shoot all three in 4 rifles and have shot some very hot loads in my Ruger #1, ONCE! After you regain your bearings and recalibrate you eye balls, you'll be happy with the lesser loads.

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DarylS
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #363532 - 15/03/22 03:17 AM

Very well put, 50Calshtr. Bravo.

Both my brother and I had .45 3 1/2" rifles long time back & it took us 8 years to find loads that would shoot in my bro's Shiloh M74 Sharps. My rolling block in the same chambering was a littler better with it's Richard Hoch barrel.
After reading Paul Mathews (now passed) we tried undersized paper patched bullets with black powder, patched up to bore diameter(not groove dia.) and bingo, terrific accuracy in both. They did both shoot well with jacketed, running 1,600fps with 500's and 2,260fps with 300's. Those bullets also shot well in my Bro's rifle with black powder, no wiping, just shot after shot. He made multiple 'groups' at 100 yards, that were cloverleafs, with both weights.

Of course, both of those sets of ballistics can be easily achieved in a .45/70 with smokeless powders. The problem with the big case, was space. Too much space that had to be filled with either black powder or wads, or now, we learn, foam backer rod. Nothing was really gained over a much shorter case, though, except when using BP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: DarylS]
      #364294 - 05/04/22 07:25 AM

Yesterday, I shot my Beretta .45-90 for the first time since Aaron Little extended the chambers from .45-70 to.45-90.

That was a 3/10 inch extension and much of that space was used for powder. Both Aaron and I noticed the difference when firing the rifle to adjust the express sights to zero. Both recoil and sound had increased along with velocity which was well up into the upper velocity of the .458 Win Mag.

In fact, the calculated velocity of the 350 grain North Fork 350 SS bullets equaled that of the .458 WM data in a reloading manual. The darn thing almost jumped out of my hands at first!

It is regulated for 45-50 yards with the bullet holes right next to each other. The calculated velocity is 2200 to 2300 fps. I am eager to shoot it at longer ranges and over my Chronograph.

God willing and the creeks don't rise, I will hunt exotics with it on a cull hunt two weeks from now.



This old picture is the only one that I now have, but some better ones are due soon. Those pix will include detail of the Alaska Gun works QD scope mounts. Reckon the Provenance will need to be updated too.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #364295 - 05/04/22 08:51 AM

Looking good. My .458 2" made 2,296fps with Hornady RN's and they really did well on our moose. Years ago, I posted a picture here of a (675lb.in quarters) bull I shot with this load and rifle. Of course, that was a Mauser Bolt action and close to top-end loads. I used the same loads with 350gr. Horn., 400gr. Barnes Spitzers and 500gr. Hornady RNs. The velocities ran 2,296fps, 2,159fps and 2,059fps.

I suspect your .45 2.4" should do likewise, if you are getting close to 2,300fps with 350's.
I used 68.0gr. H335 and 66.0gr. IMR4320. These were compressed loads.
The H335 made quite the fireballs fired at night.
I suspect I could have done the same or similar with H4895.
Too, my rifle had 3/8" freebore and allowed seating the bullets well out of the case, so would be similar to a short throated .45 2.3", I guess.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #364311 - 05/04/22 05:36 PM

Quote:

Yesterday, I shot my Beretta .45-90 for the first time since Aaron Little extended the chambers from .45-70 to.45-90.

That was a 3/10 inch extension and much of that space was used for powder. Both Aaron and I noticed the difference when firing the rifle to adjust the express sights to zero. Both recoil and sound had increased along with velocity which was well up into the upper velocity of the .458 Win Mag.

In fact, the calculated velocity of the 350 grain North Fork 350 SS bullets equaled that of the .458 WM data in a reloading manual. The darn thing almost jumped out of my hands at first!

It is regulated for 45-50 yards with the bullet holes right next to each other. The calculated velocity is 2200 to 2300 fps. I am eager to shoot it at longer ranges and over my Chronograph.

God willing and the creeks don't rise, I will hunt exotics with it on a cull hunt two weeks from now.



This old picture is the only one that I now have, but some better ones are due soon. Those pix will include detail of the Alaska Gun works QD scope mounts. Reckon the Provenance will need to be updated too.



Sounds a wonderful result.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: NitroX]
      #364336 - 06/04/22 06:59 AM

Wonderful news mate!
Hope to see your loading data & field results when you get the chance.
Certainly a lovely rig!

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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #364498 - 11/04/22 07:30 AM

My son and I shot it at 100 yards yesterday and it was right on, putting a round in the 10 ring.
Good to go for next week.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #364511 - 11/04/22 07:06 PM

Sometimes so many problems. It must be a pleasure when it all goes right.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: NitroX]
      #364516 - 11/04/22 09:57 PM

It must be a pleasure when it all goes right."

Indeed!
Now rain forecast for next few days! Oh well.

--------------------
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HeymSR20
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #364517 - 11/04/22 10:43 PM

Moderately priced doubles chambered in 45/70 will most likely be built on relatively modest double rifle actions. These will be suitable for small bores up to things like the 9.3x74r. These are often double shotgun actions. Pressures per se are not so much the issue, its the overall force being sent back onto the action frame.

If you look at proper big bore double rifles chambered for the likes of the 470 Nitro Express the water table is longer and the back of the action around the detonation will be considerably deeper, all of which makes for a much stronger action able to withstand the much larger larger recoil forces. Big double dangerous game don’t produce huge pressures, but they do produce lots of recoil.

Lengthening the chambers of a 45/70 so effectively duplicate 470 NE type ballistics would probably result in the action cracking sooner or later. Besides it would very uncomfortable to shoot as would almost certainly not have enough weight to absorb the recoil.

The 45/70 is a very capable cartridge in its own right, and probably best used for what it is designed for. And in a double rifle would make an excellent close deer, elk and boar type rifle.

But if you need a big thumping DG rifle, get a proper double built for the job, or get a BRNO or CZ bolt action in 458 win with full strength ammo, or have it taken out to 458 Lott.

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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #364531 - 12/04/22 07:45 AM

John/Nitrox,
Before I bought this rifle from the widow of the maker, I collected the history, Beretta factory specifications including pressure testing results, and info like barrel maker and such.
I also followed the structural planning and details as directed in W Ellis Browns book.
My research indicated 45-70 pressures including back pressure on the receiver were well below the specs of the action. The rifle had been hunted for several years and was in as-new condition.

After firing it and taking a 300 pound hog with 300 grain Remington bullets loaded to 1600 fps, I decided to move forward with my planned 45-90 project.

Not wanting to take unnecessary risks, I am using VV N133 powder which generates an average of 12,000 psi less peak chamber pressure than most other powders. So far, I have kept the peak chamber pressure under 40,000 psi and it shoots very well.

I have loaded 45-70 ammo with N133 to a book velocity of 2037 fps and book pressure of 30,450 psi it too is accurate, but shoots a bit lower than the 45-90 loads. Based on my previous experience with my .405 DR, I may be able to find a 45-70 load that also regulates.

Off to a good start and much sport ahead!

--------------------
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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #364532 - 12/04/22 08:06 AM

Heymsr20 said,
But if you need a big thumping DG rifle, get a proper double built for the job, or get a BRNO or CZ bolt action in 458 win with full strength ammo, or have it taken out to 458 Lott."

Dear sir, no offense intended, but I have heard such advice (go get a Lott ) until I am sick of it.

Also I do not need or want a big "thumping DG rifle". I like my 45-90 rifles. I also shoot DG with my Winchester 1895 .405 WCF.

Some folks made fun of using an 1886 45=90 in Africa, but they stopped after my 1886 45-90 took ele, many buff, leopard (could have done that with my .308) and more. Why not, it shot NF 450 grain solids at 2150 fps that shot through ele heads and everything else. PS, the slightly slower 45-70 ammo did the same, excepting the leopard. The 450 solids loaded to less than 40,000 psi.

The folks referenced above seem to have forgotten that it is the bullets that kills the game, not the brand or design of the rifle. I care not what firearms others use so long as they do not tell me to do as they do.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (12/04/22 08:11 AM)

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crshelton
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Re: Rechambering a Double .45/70? [Re: crshelton]
      #364772 - 20/04/22 10:58 AM

Took first exotic with DR.
A blackbuck a 100 yards. The scope makes it easier to see the little buggers.
Thy are good eating though and will soon get mine and my sons back from the processors.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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