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fiatcrew
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Reged: 21/02/22
Posts: 11
Loc: Pennsylvania
New to doubles and I need sugestions
      #362920 - 02/03/22 01:44 PM

Hello
I am new to double rifles though I have been wanting one for years.
I was looking at 3 different new rifles and a few antique ones.
The three new ones are Chappuis, Sabbatti, and Gaucher. The last seems to be French. These are in 9.3x74
The antiques are Wilkinson in .375 flanged and a J.P. Sauer with octagon barrels in 450 31/4.
Are any of these rifles worth owning?
Thank you for your help
Nick

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: fiatcrew]
      #362925 - 02/03/22 03:37 PM

Short answer: yes

Longer answer: and questions
- Are you a modern gun type, or do you appreciate vintage guns for what they are and were?
- just for fun, or will you hunt them, and what game?
- Do you reload?
- The .375 Flanged; is it the older 2 1/2" Nitro Express or is it the .375 Mag Flanged NE? Either one is a reloading only prospect. Prepare for hassles getting brass and dies. "May" shoot only 1 load accurately
- .450 3 1/4" …..made for the .450 3 1/4" 480 grain bullet Nitro load? Same brass and dies problem as above and factory ammo is scarce and expensive. Same deal with regulation, and they are like shooting a .458 Win Mag and useful for the same game.
- 9.3x74R a do everything cartridge (except maybe Elephant)

- Sabatti are the lowest end price point, however I have one in 9.3x74R and it has been quite accurate, serviceable, and is certainly holding up. Don't risk a "made for Cabelas" Sabatti, even if new old stock/never fired.
- Have never heard of a Gaucher (I'm principally a vintage/antique Brit rifle kind of guy)

As to the Wilkinson and Sauer; condition is everything. You have to either: implicitly trust the seller, be knowledgeable enough to "vet" the rifle yourself, or have a very good double rifle gunsmith lined up and the extra $$$ to bring a marginal choice up to speed. Even the best big named double rifle sellers will sometimes not disclose known issues with vintage rifles.

"Worth owning"? Only you can ultimately answer that, it can be a very individual thing.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: 3DogMike]
      #362934 - 02/03/22 09:59 PM

Good questions by Mike.

Of all the rifles you list, the Chapuis in 9.3x74R is probably the best bet and easiest to start off with.

Good for hunting medium game. Anything in North America.

If you want one for an African safari, the game sought may influence what cartridge is necessary.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: 3DogMike]
      #362953 - 03/03/22 02:21 AM

Quote:

Short answer: yes

Longer answer: and questions

Don't risk a "made for Cabelas" Sabatti, even if new old stock/never fired.


- Mike



Hello Mike

sorry for my ignorance but can you explain the comment above? I am assuming like everything else made for Cabela's..its been cheapened to lower their price point/increase corp profits??

I have a very good friend who owns a higher end boot company.. He told me Cabela's wanted to sell his boots but he would have to change the construction of the boot to lower Cabela's cost for them.. He told Cabela's to go pound sand..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 916
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: Ripp]
      #362954 - 03/03/22 02:38 AM

I think part of the answer is whether you are concerned about a future sale. I believe the vintage guns will maintain or may increase in value.
I think the newer rifles are probably great tools but may lose value as they are used.
Regardless, if they are sufficiently accurate, they should be tremendous fun. Guns that pattern (even is great looking guns) aren't fun to shoot and disastrous on hunting trips.
Good comments about about caliber and whether you will need to reload. Of course, store bought dangerous game ammo is sometimes hard to find and is expensive so reloading is a nice option.

--------------------
RB

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fiatcrew
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Reged: 21/02/22
Posts: 11
Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: 85lc]
      #362957 - 03/03/22 03:32 AM

Thank you for responding.
I really enjoy things with a history, but I try to be practical. If cases are available or can readily be made I will usually go with old. I enjoy shooting and reloading and am ready to experiment with reduced loads to make practice enjoyable and affordable. Typically I will use lead bullets except for hunting. I would like to use it on a moose or bison one day. I may me fanciful but I would like to stay under 5 thousand. I misses out on a underlever 500 BP express not a great loss because I prefer a top lever. It is my plan to convert a shotgun to a rifle as an experiment in workmanship and craftsman ship, also it would be fun.
I received a letter from Gaucher they do not export to the U.S..
Nick

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skl1
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Reged: 18/01/04
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: 85lc]
      #362958 - 03/03/22 03:42 AM

Nick,

Chapuis have a reputation for being very accurate/well-regulated. So the two barrels shoot the specified regulation load (i.e. Norma 286grain Oryx 9.3x74 load) to the same point of impact at the regulation distance (often 50 metres).

Sabatti sold a bunch of double rifles through Cabelas. Apparently they adjusted regulation by cutting the barrel crowns at an angle instead of re-soldering the barrels at a different angle. It didn't look good, though apparently it did work pretty well. But it's not the correct way to do this, and there are scores of people ranting across the internet about it. Cabelas tried to "fix" this and let people return the guns. Sabatti re-crowned some and re-regulated I guess. People who have the Sabatti's though seem to think they're pretty good guns.

Never heard of Gaucher either.

JP Sauer made solid guns. Probably so did Wilkinson. Current state of those guns would be unknown, though, and expensive to feed per earlier responses.

Hope this helps,
Steve

Edited by skl1 (03/03/22 03:45 AM)

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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: skl1]
      #362964 - 03/03/22 06:35 AM

Fiatcrew,
If you are serious about converting a shotgun to a rifle, you definitely should buy this book on that subject. Building DOUBLE RIFLES on shotgun actions

http://www.bundukipublishing.com/doublerifle.htm

I think this is the second edition and that the author, W Ellis Brown was working on yet a third edition.

Also recommended if The Double Rifle Primer by Cal Pappas

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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bwanabobftw
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Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 667
Loc: Texas
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: crshelton]
      #362971 - 03/03/22 11:05 AM

Nick,
Welcome to the forum !!!!! There is a wealth of Double Rifle knowledge here. I agree with John, “The Chapuis 9.3x74R is probably the best bet and easiest to start off with”. I own and have owned several doubles by Chapuis (including a 9.3x74R) they all shoot well and have given me no problem. They are a great buy on the used market and there are plenty of “9.3 components “ out there to load it with.
Good Luck !!!!!!!
Robert

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: Ripp]
      #362973 - 03/03/22 01:37 PM

Quote:


Hello Mike
sorry for my ignorance but can you explain the comment above? I am assuming like everything else made for Cabela's..its been cheapened to lower their price point/increase corp profits??



Ripp:
The Cabelas rifles were (pre Bass Pro & some not all rifles) "final regulated" by grinding the rifling down one side or the other at the muzzle(s). Apparently this gave acceptable regulation on a 50 yard target, however I have heard/read that bullet stability was impacted and beyond some unspecified range the shots were liable to go wild. Cabelas is said to have had to eat a lot of "rejected by customer" rifles.
The problem was that Sabatti's barrels/ribs were/are joined by brazing, rather that soldered, and are a huge problem to "reregulate properly" hence the shortcut of grinding the muzzles.
I know of only Ken Owen and Aaron Little that would touch a Sabatti, and do not know if they will even deal with that these days.


NICK:
"…..I enjoy shooting and reloading and am ready to experiment with reduced loads to make practice enjoyable and affordable. Typically I will use lead bullets except for hunting. I would like to use it on a moose or bison one day…."
Two observations;
1) The 9.3x74 is perfectly adequate for Moose or Bison
2) Double rifles RARELY adapt to accurate right/left accuracy as well as elevation on target with reduced loads. Yes, they can shoot lead bullets, but only blind luck would get an accurate load at normal cast bullet velocities. I can shoot proper weight Gas Check bullets (with LBT Blue lube) at normal NE velocities and get fine accuracy and regulation.

Double rifles are, with rare exceptions, "one load accuracy" (ie: original bullet weight and velocity) rifles.
Yes, there is the 75% rule……but that is not "reduced load/cast bullet load shooting".

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: skl1]
      #362983 - 03/03/22 05:51 PM

Quote:



Sabatti sold a bunch of double rifles through Cabelas. Apparently they adjusted regulation by cutting the barrel crowns at an angle instead of re-soldering the barrels at a different angle. It didn't look good, though apparently it did work pretty well.



Correction. The reason there are so many adverse reports on Sabattis is the grinding of the crown did not work at all in regulating rifles not properly factory regulated by Sabatti. Lots and lots of unhappy buyers.

A reason I recommended the Chapuis over the cheaper Sabatti.

There is almost always a reason a new double rifle make is cheaper than another. Engraving, workmanship, name reputation, but at the base level, regulation is often lacking. On a fixed barrel dr this is a serious defect.

Some drs have self adjustable barrels and are very affordable.

A dr which can't shoot regulation is a complete waste of time. Makers making such pieces of crap are a waste of time and money. And will carry that reputation eg Pedérsoli, Sabatti, Blaser S2 among others. Note the last has self regulation but any of these rifles still could not be regulated.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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fiatcrew
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Reged: 21/02/22
Posts: 11
Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: NitroX]
      #363012 - 04/03/22 02:03 AM

Is Chapuis adjustable? I am looking at one on line.

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skl1
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Reged: 18/01/04
Posts: 14
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: fiatcrew]
      #363013 - 04/03/22 03:09 AM

Quote:

Is Chapuis adjustable? I am looking at one on line.



Yes, Chapuis does offer an adjustable regulation system on their double rifles. It's not on all their double rifles, though. But it is an option.

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skl1
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Reged: 18/01/04
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: skl1]
      #363015 - 04/03/22 03:20 AM

Fiatcrew,

I just looked at the Chapuis sight, and I don't see the "S12" or "C10S" listed anymore. This was the O/U version of the adjustable regulation system. A man on another forum has indicated he has a Chapuis SxS with the same adjustable system. But they may have dropped this since they were acquired by Beretta. But you may still find them out in the wild.

Anyway, some of the German double rifle makers offered a similar system also. Maybe Krieghoff and Blaser? Hopefully somebody who knows will chime in.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: skl1]
      #363035 - 04/03/22 01:24 PM

Why do you want an adjustable barrel dr system if you can afford a proper regulated soldered barrel?

If I wanted a less than $5000 double rifle I would consider a second hand Chapuis or similar in 9.3x74R. And see if I could test shoot it to ensure it shoots well.

Or a second hand Merkel in .470 for approx $8000.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ahmed577
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Reged: 13/06/13
Posts: 327
Loc: Western Australia
Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: NitroX]
      #363048 - 04/03/22 10:48 PM

If you want the best at the lowest price wait until you can afford a HYEM. Or track down a second hand HYEM that the owner is not looking for a large PROFIT. They are out there.

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crshelton
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: Ahmed577]
      #363113 - 06/03/22 01:57 AM

Of possible interest to you:
Aaron Little just upgraded my Beretta SxS DR from .45-70 to 45-90 and naturally regulated too> The picture of the regulation Target below was with my hand loaded NF 350SS bullets at about 2200 fps.
The flyer was due to the Texas "breeze" which can be windy and variable/gusty.


--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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transvaal
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: crshelton]
      #363114 - 06/03/22 05:10 AM

What distance did Aaron shoot this group for you?

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crshelton
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Re: New to doubles and I need sugestions [Re: transvaal]
      #363116 - 06/03/22 06:37 AM

45 yards. off a tripod.

When I pick up the rifle, I will shoot it at 100 yards just for the record.
Also will chrony the load as that is needed,
Also will shoot some 45-70 loads to see how they regulate.

However, the gun is not ready to hunt as the express sights must be filed to match where it is shooting.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

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