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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: JPK]
      #55352 - 21/04/06 02:13 AM

Smitch6551,

Another option for a takedown rifle would be Duane Weibe. 500 Grains mentioned him earlier in the thread. The phone number that I have for Duane is no longer good. Maybe 500 Grains has contact info. More money than Dakota, but worth it.

JPK


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: allenday]
      #55356 - 21/04/06 03:55 AM

Allen,

I see your point. However I’m going to disagree on some points. True mass produced rifles like Remington and Ruger in safari grade are bumping the 2K mark. It’s not unreasonable that the 76 is a 5K rifle. But, on safari in Africa or hunting in the good ole USA, I seriously doubt a custom rifle will out shoot or out last the Dakota. I’m a double man and picked up the Dakota as a backup/scoped rifle; I wanted something nicer and more exclusive than a Ruger.


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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MRobinson
.275 member


Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: bonanza]
      #55360 - 21/04/06 05:31 AM

I have seen three big bore Dakota 76s with stocks split behind the tang, and one of those (a .450) was splintered irreparably.

All with double cross-bolted stocks. The cross-bolting was not tight against the action bearing surfaces and the tangs had not been properly relieved. The barreled actions were simply moving rearward an excessive amount with each shot. All three of these rifles had very nice wood, too.

I have seen other big bore Dakota 76s that did not have these problems. But before buying one, and definitely before shooting one, I would pay particular attention to the stock and its bedding.

--------------------
Mike


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: MRobinson]
      #55362 - 21/04/06 06:58 AM

I wonder if these Dakota problems are all post Allen. The bedding on my rifles couldn't be better, even if there wer problems getting the rifles done correctly.

JPK


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wffHein
.224 member


Reged: 23/12/03
Posts: 17
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: JPK]
      #55408 - 21/04/06 11:50 PM

Best Quality Bolt Guns????

HMMMMMMM......... I am going to have to think about that one for a while.......
I'll get back to you.

--------------------
Karl Webber
Waffenfabrik Hein
www.rifleactions.com
karl@rifleactions.com


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: wffHein]
      #55414 - 22/04/06 01:29 AM

Karl,

While thinking, would you post some pictures here for us? I am sure many of us agree with your choice though you could give us some clinching photographic evidence as you do elsewhere.

Thanks for posting and do post often!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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wffHein
.224 member


Reged: 23/12/03
Posts: 17
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #55427 - 22/04/06 02:40 AM

Since you didn't ask for photos of anything in particular, here are a few random samples.









--------------------
Karl Webber
Waffenfabrik Hein
www.rifleactions.com
karl@rifleactions.com


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: MRobinson]
      #55429 - 22/04/06 03:10 AM

Thank you for contacting us.
Dakota rifles are manufactured one at a time through an assembly line. Each of our 50 employees specializes in a specific job such as machining, checkering, oil finish, etc. Most have been with us for 10 to 15 years. We start with a block of steel and CNC machine the receiver bolt and small parts. We make everything ourselves including the sling swivels. The only thing we buy are the barrels and some of the screws and springs. We make the action from hardened chromoly steel so there is no heat treating after the machining. The barrels are purchased from major manufacturers such as Lilja, Douglas, Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Pacnor, etc. Barrel selection can be from you or we can choose for you. All the metal work is done buy hand, fitting, feeding, extraction and the final finish. The bluing is done one barrelled action at a time in a hot dip blue system. The walnut is hand selected by either the client in person or by email or the stockmakers can make the choice for you . The initial shaping is done by CNC computers and then detail work and final shaping and sanding and bedding are done by the stockmakers. Again, one at a time. Sanding and oil finish is done by hand. It is a week long oil finish - wet sanding repeatedly. The checkering is hand cut - 23 lines per inch unless tighter checkering is requested as an option. Final assembly is again one rifle at a time. The adjustments are made and final inspection is done. The client sends their scope and it is mounted and shot. The barrel is broken in and a 100 yard target is supplied on every rifle. If open sights are chosen, they are filed in and a target is supplied for those as well. Each employee signs off on their portion on every rifle and the records are stored for future reference. The first round of brass shot through the barreled action is engraved with the serial number of the rifle and they are filed for future reference. When Dakota provides an accuracy guarantee we need a permanent record of the chamber in case someone has been in there. All screws are indexed so again we can tell if the rifle has been taken apart. The actual time to build a basic rifle is about 8 weeks. Our current lead time is running 8 to 10 months.

We make and use
One piece trigger guard assembly
Mauser claw extractor
CNC machined actions on hardened steel
No casting or forging
Model 70 style trigger, crisp
Three position safety
Dakota bolt release and gas shroud
We buy and use match grade barrels

Hope this helps. The 375 HH Safari Grade has out sold all other calibers for over 15 years. You have a fine rifle that will only increase in value through the years to come. A complete refurbish of both metalwork and woodwork is available for $500 when you are ready to make it look like new again. Some folks never do as each mark is a reminder of great times in the field. Let us know if we can help in any way. Be sure to contact us before buying on the second hand market as we can tell you if the serial number you are looking at was sold as an action and finished by someone else or if it was made here in the factory and when and who worked on it.

Regards,
Paulette


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DPhillips
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: bonanza]
      #55435 - 22/04/06 06:09 AM

The Dakota rifles I've seen and shot have all been nice rifles, but are not what I would consider to be "BEST" guns in the traditional term.

There's no way they match up to a Wiebe, Ottmar, Echols, Miller, Heilmann, Hensley, Huges, Stratton, etc... rifle. They are less expensive, though. BEST rifles do have a price tag to reflect the work that goes into them.


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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: DPhillips]
      #55580 - 24/04/06 05:43 AM

FWIW, I borrowed a Dakota 76 a few years ago in 375H&H from a friend, to check it out as I was thinking of buying it from him. It functioned perfectly, the stock fit me, and the price he offered was reasonable. However, although it wasn't "Minute of foot" as Allen mentioned, it wasn't far from it. I tried out a great variation of factory and handloaded ammo, and it just wouldn't shoot well. I mentioned this to my friend, and he had to admit that it never shot very well for him either...

I have heard the same from a few other (previous) Dakota owners here in Norway. Which leads me to believe that Dakotas can shoot just fine if you're lucky and get a "good one", or really crappy if you get a "lemon". I see no reason to pay that kind of money on a gun that I'm not 100% sure will shoot as it should without going back to the factory numerous times.

Erik D.


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allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: bonanza]
      #55583 - 24/04/06 06:28 AM

I've had D'Arcy Echols build for me a total of eight custom rifles, and all of them have been stellar, the best I've ever owned, and accuracy and function are absolutely flawless, and the best of any rifles I've ever owned, period. As a reference point or experience, I ordered my first custom rifle in 1980, at the age of 23, and I've owned a slew of such rifles ever since.

In contrast, both of the Dakotas I owned (circa 1985) were inaccurate, the wood quality was lousy, the pistol grips felt like they belonged on a shotgun rather than a rifle, and the "oil" finish they wore was ineffectual as a weather barrier, but was more than up to the job of making the rifle look good in the gun cabinet .

Now contrasting those two widely divergent sets of experiences, how would you feel if you were me in terms of comparing the quality of a Dakota to a true best-quality custom bolt-gun?

In effect, comparing a Dakota to a true best-quality CUSTOM bolt gun is about like comparing one of the 1980s-era Japanese-made Parker reproductions to a Purdey -- it might look similar at first glance, but it's hardly the same product, either inside or out.

Dakotas seem to appeal to the guys who like the FORM of a classic best-quality custom bolt-gun, but who aren't actually experienced of the SUBSTANCE of a true best-quality bolt gun. Big difference......... And I guess if I thought, based on my experience over the course of many years, that Dakota was equal with a Biesen rifle, or a Miller rifle, or an Echols rifle, I'd be a Dakota client to this day, but I'm not.

Once guys get started with the true, high-end custom product from the smaller makers, they stay away from the the semi-production/semi-custom rifles, such as Dakota, for good. It bears repeating, but true best-quality custom rifles simply can't be mass-produced, or even semi-mass-produced, by a crew of people who tend to turn over on a regular basis, and who are semi-trained in many cases, and not career craftsmen for the most part.

With the smaller true custom makers, you get the same man or the same team of men, and you get career craftsmen who put a big part of themselves, plus many years of experience and training, into their product. Their name is on the line every time they send a rifle out, the buck stops with them, and that shows in the end product. These guys really deserve the business..........

I don't know how things are done today at Dakota, I'll assume everything's now on the up and up, but some years ago, so many guys got totally ripped-off on wood quality with Dakota, even after paying for "select" or "exhibition grade", and so many guys had running gun battles over accuracy and other function issues that they were totally turned-off (to put it mildly) as Dakota customers for life.

I'm one of those guys, and all I can say to the custom, or semi-custom gunmaking community it this:

"YOU CAN GIVE A GUY A LOT OF HAIRCUTS, BUT YOU ONLY SCALP HIM ONCE!"

AD


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: allenday]
      #55629 - 25/04/06 12:38 AM

I guess I'd have to see a "Best" bolt gun in person to be convinced. I remain open minded.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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smicha6551
.275 member


Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: bonanza]
      #55631 - 25/04/06 01:04 AM

Any thoughts on either the Empire rifles or Dumoulin-Herstal? I'm still leaning toward Jung right now but I'm a bit short on information on them, so I'd like some other options.

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k80
.333 member


Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: smicha6551]
      #55807 - 26/04/06 02:22 PM

The FNs and Browings from the
50s and early 60s were hard to
beat for quality.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas


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smicha6551
.275 member


Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: k80]
      #56018 - 29/04/06 01:59 AM

OK, if Dakota is out, who can be recomended for a takedown rifle? I know about Waffen Jung, is there anyone else?

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DPhillips
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: smicha6551]
      #56033 - 29/04/06 07:17 AM

In reply to:

OK, if Dakota is out, who can be recomended for a takedown rifle? I know about Waffen Jung, is there anyone else?


Duane Wiebe

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smicha6551
.275 member


Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: DPhillips]
      #56103 - 30/04/06 10:04 PM

I can't find any contact info for Duane Wiebe online, does anyone have it? Waffen Jung hasn't replied to my email - then again neither has Dakota. Is anyone familiar with VO takedown rifles (www.vovapen.se)?

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MopaneMike
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 147
Loc: So Cal USA
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: allenday]
      #56113 - 01/05/06 12:17 AM

Allen,
I'd have to agree with you.. I had dakota build me a African 450dakota. All custom(to them) right down to I picked my own blank by hand.. Most of their smithing is a hodge podge of parts that you can get in Brownells. They offer only one stock dimension "Their's" Not that there was anything wrong with their gun, just not as right as a "Custom" gun should be.. I would call Dakota more of a Hi grade production rifle than a true custom gun, or at the very best, a entry level custom rifle.. If anyone truely cares enough I supose they can do a search from some time ago and see pictures of my Dakota 450 in the Classifieds... My member name back then was 450Dakota... BTW, their stocks beat the snott out of you in heavy calibers..

--------------------
MopaneMike


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: smicha6551]
      #56118 - 01/05/06 02:10 AM

Steven,

Ask Johan about Vovapen. They used to build rifles on both Mauser actions as well as on Husqvarnas (the actions are now made by Zoli in Italy after Husqvarna sold them the amchinery) but these days they don't seem to make the Mauser based TD rifles. If it is a TD you want, then you could contact New England Custom Guns who are the US representatives for Reimer Johannsen. They would import one for you made on any of the Johannsen actions (which are made by Gottfried Prechtl at their plant in Estonia.)



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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DPhillips
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: smicha6551]
      #56132 - 01/05/06 05:29 AM

In reply to:

I can't find any contact info for Duane Wiebe online, does anyone have it?



Duane Wiebe
1111 157th St Ct E
Tacoma, WA 98445
duane@directcon.net
(253) 535-0066


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: MopaneMike]
      #56212 - 02/05/06 11:41 PM

Mopane,

Not quite true. Dakota manufactures everything in house except the barrels and triggers. Also, nothing on the rifle is made from cast parts.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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smicha6551
.275 member


Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: bonanza]
      #56224 - 03/05/06 01:49 AM

I will give Dakota this, they're the only one yet to respond to my emails.

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: smicha6551]
      #56289 - 03/05/06 01:41 PM

Joe Smithson of Provo, Utah makes best quality takedown bolt guns on Granite Mountain actions.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: bonanza]
      #56303 - 03/05/06 04:39 PM

Bonanza,

A well known PH in Africa told me his horror story with a Dakota African model in 450 Dakota whose stock broke at the grip after just a few rounds fired following which he sent it back and it was replaced for this to happen again. I guess there is a possiblity that he may have been unlucky, but, I am not sure. There are other stories out there which, though not as catastrophic, are sad including with a very good friend of mine and a popular member on these forums as well as on AR. I shall send him a link to this thread and he could post if he wishes to - he won;t buy a Dakota product again.

I am not sure that they would come under the "best" bolt rifle list though they do make some very nice rifles to my inexpert eye, no doubt.

Best wishes,

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Best quality bolt guns? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #56342 - 04/05/06 02:18 AM

I know of a Dakota that did not feed worth a hoot when the customer received it. Dakota makes production rifles with a few options, but they cannot be considered best quality, unfortunately.

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