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35Whelen
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Reged: 07/08/09
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Loc: Essex, England
Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition
      #357277 - 07/10/21 07:10 PM

I am looking at this Charles Lancaster rifle https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101684418 and am wondering about the odd calibre designation: Eley 404 Rimless. Did Eley make specific cartridges for Lancaster? Was it some sort of marketing ploy, where Lancaster advertised Eley ammunition? Anyone know?
Cheers guys.


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93x64mm
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 35Whelen]
      #357278 - 07/10/21 10:34 PM

Very nice piece 35Whelen!
Sorry I can't with the Eley cartridge query, but I suspect that this is what ammunition this rifle was originally sighted in for. Factory specs were all over the shop, some quoted figures were quite 'optimistic' or taken from 28 or 30" test barrels!


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35Whelen
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 93x64mm]
      #357281 - 08/10/21 03:26 AM

Maybe you're right 93x64. I have the same rifle, bit fancier, also with a LOP suited to a giant. Mine is also chambered in an Eley calibre, this time Eley 280 Rimless. That's the designation on the rifle. Beats me what round that is. It's not the 280 Rimless aka 280 Ross. I shoot several Ross sporters and have 1960's Kynoch factory ammo - the Lancaster won't digest the rim on that. Seeing the gun above,which would be a nice sibling for mine, it reminded me about this weird ammo designation.

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85lc
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 35Whelen]
      #357282 - 08/10/21 03:48 AM

Didn't they make a 280 rimless which was the Ross without a rim? I thought it could be made from 30 Newton.

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RB


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3DogMike
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 85lc]
      #357283 - 08/10/21 04:51 AM

Nice looking rifle!
I have read that Eley were the ones to originally develop and load the .404, it would then make sense that Lancaster marked the rifle as such.
The Kynoch, Eley, Kings Norton companies did produce bespoke cartridges for the major Brit arms makers.
.404 would have been understood to be a .404, just “branded” and (possibly) loaded to Eley specs which could have been slightly different from Kynoch or others.
Still, the “typical” .404 400 grain ammo was loaded either to tropical spec of 55 grains Cordite or the full 60 grain Cordite load.
There were other bullet weights offered as well and bullet weight not necessarily marked on the rifle, just the proofed loading.

The Ross….
According to the Fleming book.
There were several .280 cartridges loaded by Eley, Kynoch, and Kings Norton:
.280 Kings Norton Experimental .509 rim diameter
28 Ross (280 Roosevelt) ~.485 rim diameter
280 Westley Richards .468 rim diameter
280 Flanged Magnum (Rimmed Ross) .602 rim diameter
280 Ross .551-.558 rim diameter
-and-
280 Jeffery .532-.541 rim diameter

The 280 Ross was also known as the 280 Rimless Nitro Express
The original rimless 280 Ross had a rim slightly larger than base diameter .534 base/.556 rim

This is the “fun” of getting vintage Brit rifles shooting …….

- Mike

--------------------
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"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
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“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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35Whelen
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 85lc]
      #357286 - 08/10/21 07:53 AM

Quote:

Didn't they make a 280 rimless which was the Ross without a rim? I thought it could be made from 30 Newton.



That would be the 280 Westley Richards I believe. The rim fits a standard Mauser bolt face, which my rifle has. https://www.cartridgecollector.net/280-westley-richards-rebated-rim
The question is, why would Lancaster chamber a rifle in a competitors cartridge? Lancaster was Ross' agent on London. They were personal friends. To quote from Terry Wieland's book "Great Hunting Rifles, Victorian to Present":
“Although the .280 Ross was initially a target cartridge, its designer intended it also as a military and hunting round. After the 1908 Bisley triumph, gunmakers began chambering hunting rifles for it, as well as developing proprietary cartridges to compete with it. In Germany, Mauser’s new magnum action suited the .280 Ross perfectly, and it became a standard Mauser chambering. Ross’s friends at Charles Lancaster & Co. chambered the .280 Ross in their bolt rifles, and also developed a flanged (rimmed) version for use in double rifles and single-shots”.


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35Whelen
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 35Whelen]
      #357293 - 08/10/21 08:32 PM

Mike,those are the 280's I know off as well.
Thanks for providing the rim diameters.
The pleasures of vintage rifles indeed. I had a lovely Schmidt and Habermann Mauser in 9.3x64, a dream rifle, at least for me. Sadly the bolt face which should have been 12.65mm diameter was in fact 12.0mm (0.472”, standard for a 9.3 x 57, 9.3 x 62, .308win etc etc). No wonder my RWS ammo would not chamber. My suspicion at the time was that someone replaced the original bolt with a generic Mauser one. Could that have happened on this rifle as well? In which case, unlucky me.


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93x64mm
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 35Whelen]
      #357297 - 09/10/21 07:44 AM

35Whelen, I think it best if you do a chamber casting to determine what the cartridge dimensions really are & hence properly identify your round.
As to bolt faces, surely you could open up the face (only if you need to) if it is proven to be an incorrect bolt for the rifle?
Yes it will still mean a headspacing check, but at least you will have peace of mind that you can fire it safely which is the most important thing!
In regards to your Schmidt and Habermann Mauser, all I can say is that you unfortunately acted in haste & got rid of it. Yes the 9.3x64 round would have mated up perfectly with it!
You are not alone at doing boo-boos like that, believe you me!


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kuduae
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 93x64mm]
      #357304 - 10/10/21 04:18 AM

Back to 35Whelen’s original question: In the 1920s cartridge names were not standardized as they are today. As Eley made the first .404 cartridges for Jeffery, the cartridge was often called .404 Eley by other gunmakers. This avoided putting a competitor’s trademark on a rifle not made by Jeffery. Also, if a customer walked into Lancaster’s shop and saw a rifle marked Jeffery, he might have had the idea: “Before spending my money on such a copycat by Lancaster, I would rather go around a few London corners and buy a Jeffery original.” For the same reasons the 1920s Kynoch catalogs called the cartridge neither Jeffery nor Eley, but simply “.404 Rimless Nitro-Express”.

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lancaster
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 35Whelen]
      #357305 - 10/10/21 04:36 AM

Quote:

Mike,those are the 280's I know off as well.
Thanks for providing the rim diameters.
The pleasures of vintage rifles indeed. I had a lovely Schmidt and Habermann Mauser in 9.3x64, a dream rifle, at least for me. Sadly the bolt face which should have been 12.65mm diameter was in fact 12.0mm (0.472”, standard for a 9.3 x 57, 9.3 x 62, .308win etc etc). No wonder my RWS ammo would not chamber. My suspicion at the time was that someone replaced the original bolt with a generic Mauser one. Could that have happened on this rifle as well? In which case, unlucky me.




20 years ago I bought an original mauser in 10,75x68, was a pre WW 1 made. got the rifle from the postman and try to load an old DWM cartridge and it did not work. It was obviously a bolt for standard 8 mm brass and comrades. while looking original on the first view it don#t had the right number of this rifle.
no doubt the cleaning woman must have mixed up the bolts from another similar mauser rifle when clear up the warehouse.
the original bolt was found then and we change it for good.

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DarylS
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: lancaster]
      #357310 - 10/10/21 07:37 AM

Lucky find!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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35Whelen
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: kuduae]
      #357325 - 11/10/21 03:06 AM

Quote:

Back to 35Whelen’s original question: In the 1920s cartridge names were not standardized as they are today. As Eley made the first .404 cartridges for Jeffery, the cartridge was often called .404 Eley by other gunmakers. This avoided putting a competitor’s trademark on a rifle not made by Jeffery. Also, if a customer walked into Lancaster’s shop and saw a rifle marked Jeffery, he might have had the idea: “Before spending my money on such a copycat by Lancaster, I would rather go around a few London corners and buy a Jeffery original.” For the same reasons the 1920s Kynoch catalogs called the cartridge neither Jeffery nor Eley, but simply “.404 Rimless Nitro-Express”.



That makes sense kuduae
On the point of the rifle I already have, I checked C.W. Hardig's book "Eley Cartridges". My gun is chambered by Lancaster's for Eley 280 Rimless. Eley production records for British centre fire rifle calibers indicate four cartridges in .280:
.280 Ross - Eley Rimless Match 1908-1909
.280 Ross - Eley Rimless 1907-1919
.280 Flanged Match 1910-1919
.280 Flanged 1910-1919
That would mean Eley manufactured .280 calibre cartridges only in the Ross variant and as a flanged cartridge, which is the chambering for Lancaster doubles.


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eagle27
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Re: Charles Lancaster Eley Ammunition [Re: 35Whelen]
      #357334 - 11/10/21 04:43 PM

Eley along with Kynoch developed the .404 cartridge, the earliest known drawing (Eley No.24) of the cartridge was dated 18th October 1905. The dimensions on this drawing match those on later drawings by Kynoch, Eley again in 20th January 1908 and later Kynoch and ICI Metals drawings.

The Eley 404 Rimless back in 1905 is just the standard .404 Jeffery cartridge as we know it today.


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