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rgp
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Loc: TX
Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers?
      #35554 - 07/08/05 03:39 PM

Does anyone own or has anyone used a rifle made by the Empire Rifle Co. in New Hampshire, USA? They have a website at Empire Rifles but all I have seen on them is advertising via the common gun magazines. Are they top quality or not?

A top quality bolt action in .375 H&H is the last of the rifles I want to get, after I have a Searcy double rifle, and I've been considering a bolt action Mauser from Johannsen, Searcy, and this company...Empire apparently makes .375's on something smaller than a Magnum Mauser action...unfortunately no word at all from end users of the Empire rifles so no idea if their product is worth owning.

I want to buy it and have it work as advertised from the day I purchase it instead of buying a gun that requires work before it is useable.

Richard.


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rgp]
      #35555 - 07/08/05 03:59 PM

Richard,

As far as I am aware, Empire use the Granite action and the Domoulin (spelling?) Magnum Mauser action and the Domoulin action rifles are cheaper than the Granite based actions.

The Granite action based rifles would be selected if you were doing a 505 Gibbs because the Granite has a .75" diameter bolt.

I do not know if the Granite is any better than the Domoulin but I suspect Empire see no difference as the rifle they list as their "flagship" rifle is not on the Granite. The pricing difference is probably only a reflection of their financial deal with the two action makers.

Empire obviously see Dakota as their competition as their site has a comparison between the two rifles and the Empire in the bigger calibres is exactly the same price as the Dakota African.

Mike



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500grains
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rgp]
      #35577 - 08/08/05 10:14 AM

The Dumoulin rifles sold by Emprie that I have seen were very high grade. The regular Empire bolt guns were nowhere near as fine as a Johannsen.

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rgp
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35605 - 09/08/05 08:16 AM

Mike & 500grains,

What attracted my interest in Empire was their "98 S" action that is smaller than a Magnum Mauser action but larger than a 98 K action. The S size action which Empire says they produce themselves is supposed to be large enough for .375 H&H and .416 Rigby length rounds without cutting the top of the action.

Unfortunately the only reports I've found on the Empire rifles seem to be articles designed to sell the product, and I'm leery of getting a custom gun without some user feedback because I have more than once purchased a custom built piece of junk.

Thank you,

Richard


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rgp]
      #35608 - 09/08/05 08:34 AM

Richard

I think if I was a buying a "no name" semi custom style rifle I would have a good look at the American Hunting Rifles based on the CZs. I think they also do the rifles on Granite.

There are a few blokes on AccurateReloading with the AHR rifles. In fact one fellow just recently posted up some pictures etc on a 500 A Square he had made.

The Johannsen is the class act but pricey.

My favourite of the Mauser based high price guns is the Ryan Breeding rifles but I think the Johannsen is a classier bit of gear and would go real nice with a double.

Mike


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500grains
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35609 - 09/08/05 09:30 AM

Richard,

I would consider getting a Mauser DGR at one of the following locations:

www.rbbigbores.com

http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/

http://www.jagdgewehre-ritterbusch.de/ger/start.htm

http://www.golmatic.de

Those folks do it right.


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rigbymauser
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: 500grains]
      #35642 - 10/08/05 05:15 AM

Hi Richard!

I can highly recommend the Reimer action!. I had one built last year on the Reimer, and it work flawlessly.

I haven`t shot anything with my rifle yet, but it`s a joy just to look at everytime. If you are looking for the last rifle to be made for you, don`t compromise ANYTHING, you won`t regret it(that I`LL promise you. I started out 5 years ago to save up for the rifle I desired of my dreams, and I haven`t regretted it took the hasle of time to wait to have everything prepared. Take the time you need, that`s what it`s all about.


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bwanabloke
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #35646 - 10/08/05 07:42 AM

How do Granite mountain actions ,Wif hein actions ,and Vector actions compare to each other ? has anyone been able to inspect these actions personally and give an opinion on ,finish,smoothness ,wobble in the bolt etc .I dont like buying things sight unseen [been caught enough times ] even when something is new ,i still like to have a look at it .I had a look at one new weatherby, and the amount of bolt wobble,looseness, on the action turned me off buying it.

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RLI
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: bwanabloke]
      #35655 - 10/08/05 12:46 PM

A few years ago I imported the Selous (Vektor) action from South Africa into Australia ,they are a action in the "rough" and need a competant gunsmith to go over them but are sound. The best Magnum Mauser? This is interesting because you do not really know what your buying , I contacted by phone searching the world for a magnum mauser and this what they told me

Reimer - said they use Granite Mountain Arms and some made in Lithuania! or what ever was available due to costs at the time.

Westley Richards- Granite Mountain Arms

Holland & Holland- would not say but said they source their actions from various countries........GMA?

Dumoulin- Make there own but finally admitted the action is made in Italy

So there you have it! but I think the best Magnum Mausers are Prechtl in Germany and Granite Mountain Arms USA and now the best news both now make Left Hand!


Steve


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ErikDAdministrator
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: RLI]
      #35670 - 11/08/05 12:13 AM

In reply to:



So there you have it! but I think the best Magnum Mausers are Prechtl in Germany and Granite Mountain Arms USA and now the best news both now make Left Hand!

Steve




Steve,

FWIW, Prechtls actions are actually made in...... Lithuania!

At least according to himself on the phone, although as far as I understood, they are then fine tuned and polished in his shop in Germany.

He also informed me that H&H (amongst many other well known gunmakers) usually builds their rifles with his actions.

Erik

--------------------

Cut along dotted line, discard top part.


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RLI
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: ErikD]
      #35687 - 11/08/05 07:27 AM

Erik,
I forgot Ritterbusch in Germany they said "inhouse" but they are all made on Japanese CNC machines no doubt !


Steve


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500Nitro
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: RLI]
      #35691 - 11/08/05 08:26 AM


Does it matter where the actions are made if the quality is good ?

So what about all the Rigby's, Holland's, WR's, Gibbs etc that were built on
Mauser 98 actions ?

Is a Rigby on a Mauser 98 better than a Rigby on a Brno 602 / 550 ?

Is a Holland or Westley Richards on a Mauser 98 better than a M17 Action
if finished as well ?

Doesn't it come down to how a gun is finished off as opposed to whether it is
made on a CNC Machine or by hand ?

Would be interested to know other people's thoughts on this.

I have WR 318's, 2 on Mauser 98 and one on a M17 action.
The M17 is smoother than the M98 and is generally a better feeling
gun.

500 Nitro







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RLI
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #35692 - 11/08/05 09:01 AM

500Nitro,
No it does not matter where the rifle is made but some makers sell and portray their actions or rifles as say "Made in Germany" and say a American wants a German made rifle thinking he is getting a total German rifle but he gets a Granite Mountain Arms (USA) action with the rifle is it really "Made in Germany"? If the buyer knows this and is happy with this then fine but if you ask a gunmaker and he tells you or misleads you into thinking its "Made in Germany" this is wrong This is not a quality issue (Granite Mountain Arms are best quality) but if the buyer asks the gunmaker should provide all details.

Steve


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rgp
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: RLI]
      #35710 - 11/08/05 02:14 PM

I also like to know what parts are in my rifles and if they are made by the maker or if a job is farmed out to someone else. I am not picky about it but I still like to know where everything was made and who built what.

Prechtl's site (the golmatic link as posted by 500grains) has a page here Mauser Action Technical Detail - English indicating what they (or the Lithuanians) do different with the Prechtl/Weinheim actions and the changes appear to be actual improvements. If Johannsen is getting the same actions then I would think that Johannsen rifles would have the same improvements, because most of the improvements mentioned appear to be things that have to be done when the action is initially built rather than added on later. This action is also a hair under 3 lbs, whereas the Granite action weighs 3.9 lbs, so a rifle from Prechtl or Johannsen could theoretically be built a full pound lighter than a rifle built on the Granite action. Prechtl specifically mentions altering the specs on the bolt and receiver to smooth the bolt travel.

I haven't seen any similar details on the Vectors or Granite actions yet but I think the Granite action may be larger than a normal Magnum Mauser. All that I've seen on the internet regarding the Granite actions is this:



Richard.

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/10 11:33 PM)


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rgp
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #35713 - 11/08/05 04:06 PM

In reply to:

Hi Richard!

I can highly recommend the Reimer action!. I had one built last year on the Reimer, and it work flawlessly.

I haven`t shot anything with my rifle yet, but it`s a joy just to look at everytime. If you are looking for the last rifle to be made for you, don`t compromise ANYTHING, you won`t regret it(that I`LL promise you. I started out 5 years ago to save up for the rifle I desired of my dreams, and I haven`t regretted it took the hasle of time to wait to have everything prepared. Take the time you need, that`s what it`s all about.




rigbymauser,

I've just started on the process of swapping 40 guns not worth having for a few that are the best I can buy.

The reason I have been pestering people with questions on good custom built guns is because I've owned a lot of off the rack rifles and handguns that weren't exactly desireable. Most of them wouldn't go 50 rounds without a problem, regardless of the cost. I've also bought custom built garbage and in the future want to purchase quality.

Several months ago I sold several handguns to pay for one Freedom Arms revolver, and miraculously it was perfect right out of the box. Since then I haven't been happy with my rifles, because I want the rifles to be as good as the Freedom Arms handguns, and now I'm starting the process of getting a few rifles that are exactly what I have always wanted...have my Sharps ordered, another couple of months of saving and I'll be able to order my Searcy double, and then I'll be able to get a good bolt action, which is what I'm inquiring about in this thread...

As 500grains has mentioned on forums, it's cheaper to buy quality and reliability first....personally I've spent a lot more than it would have cost to do it right to begin with...

Richard


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: RLI]
      #35761 - 13/08/05 04:01 AM

Aren't there also Hartmann und Weiss in Germany and Fred Wells in Prescott, Arizona, making very high grade Mauser actions from scratch?

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rgp]
      #35763 - 13/08/05 04:28 AM

Richard

Since you appear to have time up your sleeve before you need delivery then perhaps D'Arcy Echols doing a rifle for you is the answer.

If the calibre is big he uses H&W, but not sure if he uses the Granite.

Of course you could always move to the dark side and get Weatherby Safari with upgraded wood and Kreiger barrel and action work but it will cost about $10,000 and wait will be about 2 years as compared to 6 to 9 months for standard Safari.

This is only a gut feeling but I think Dakota has a smell about it and I think Empire probably have a system like Wby where they will be well practiced at doing their rifle.

Granite also supply barreled actions with integral quarter rib abd D'Arcy Echols saw one that Gene Semillon out together on the Granite barreled action in 505 Gibbs and it was supposed to be tops for both accuracy and reliability. I think the Granite barreled action is about $4500

Mike


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #35764 - 13/08/05 04:32 AM

Mehul

There was a fellow who posted on AR that he was having Echols do a 505 on a H&W action and they were cutting off the bolt handle and throwing the bottom metal away. That would make me cry on an action which I think costs $5000 or $6000.

Mike


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rgp
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35771 - 13/08/05 06:28 AM

500grains,

Of those German makers it appears as though most of the actions and a lot of other parts come from Prechtl, which makes me think that of the German rifles Prechtl may be the most for the money, since they have to earn a profit on anything they sell to Johannsen or others. Thus far I haven't seen any US importer listed for Prechtl. NECG is listed as importer for Johannsen, but I cross referenced a couple of price lists (on AyA shotguns) between NECG and another importer, and NECG adds a comparatively substantial amount to all prices and all options.

Mike,

I didn't know D'Arcy does Mausers, I thought he specialized in custom Model 70's. I understand that Gene Simillion also does great work but that Simillion only uses synthetic stocks, and if buying a custom rifle I want a nice piece of oil finished real wood on it and I want that wood made to fit my measurements.

I still have months to decide though (laws of economics: still earning $ for the Searcy double) and the Empire rifles sound good, especially if able to be ordered in intermediate length actions designed for a .375, but I'd definitely like to hear opinions from some owners of the Empire guns. It seems that the Empires are priced about the same as the German guns before import fees are added and the weather resistant "matte blue" ceramic finish sounds appealing.

I'm dead set on a Mauser action (although I intend to keep one stainless Model 70 in .375) so that rules out Dakota and Weatherby.

Not certain of the cost of Hartmann & Weiss actions, but they may cost a lot less than $5k, because Martini & Hagn in Canada build their Mausers on an H&W action and their prices for the completed rifles aren't high enough to allow $5k spent on the action alone.

Mehul,

I think Fred Wells used to build his own huge Mauser action for his custom rifles that are .50 calibre and larger. Not certain whether or not he still builds his own now that other Magnum Mausers are commercially available.

Thank you,

Richard


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rgp]
      #35773 - 13/08/05 07:53 AM

Richard

D'Arcy does wood which he calls his Classic and does it on ordinary Mausers for the smaller calibres and Magnum Mausers for the big bangers.

But I think he is about $15000 for the wood gun, plus the cost of the blank.

I imagine D'Arcy would do wood using the Granite barreled action but the H&W would be his preferred action. Granite make a smaller action with the .7" diameter bolt for 375 etc

What about the bolt action that Searcy does. If that is any good then it would nice match up for your Searcy double.

You sound as if you would prefer to start with a new action as opposed to a worked over old Mauser.

Mike



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rgp
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35774 - 13/08/05 08:50 AM

Mike,

I've heard of the Echols Classic, which I had mistakenly assumed was a Model 70, being priced at up to $20k, although I'm not certain what extra function you actually get for the extra several thousand dollars. The other thing here in the USA is that sales tax is added above the list price instead of being hidden in the list price like Australia's GST, so the sale price of a $15k rifle can easily go up to $16k or more in some states.

I am considering Searcy's bolt action as well, and when ordering the double rifle, will probably ask Mr. Searcy more questions about his bolt actions than about the double (my only real point of confusion on the double is whether to order a set of 12 ga barrels with it). The few Searcy bolt actions I've seen in photographs appear to be built exactly like what I have in mind if they're not excessively heavy for a .375.

Thank you,

Richard.


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: rgp]
      #35776 - 13/08/05 11:59 AM

Richard

The Echols Legend is basically a "fixed" rifle and the Classic is open go. Basically D'Arcy charges $7000 to make a wood stock and you add that to the price of the legend.

I like the look of the Searcys and if they were as good as they look they would make a good match up for your double.

The only potential reservation I would have on the Searcy bolt gun is that he may not make very many and practice makes perfect. But I think I would rather have a rifle where the people speak English.

This may of be some interest to you on Empire, George Sandmann sent me an email after reading this thread and is waiting for his registration on the site to come through. He seems keen and that is half the battle

Dear Mike:

Interested in the thread about our company, Empire Rifles. Will post the following as soon as the administrator activates my membership. Hope you find the following helpful

Empire Rifles makes rifles on Mauser 98 actions. There are four rifle models:
1. the Legacy Rifle, made on a 98K by Dumoulin of Herstal, Belgium. 257 Roberts to 500 Jeffery
2. the lightweight Liberty Rifle, the same 98K action but in a lightweight stock
3. the Empire Standard Rifle, made on our proprietary 98S Mauser, CNC machined here in the US from solid stock. H-ring, one piece bolt, undercut bolt head, safety shoulders on firing pin, full length guide rib, third rear locking lug, all correct cam angles, etc. 100% CNC and EDM, chrome-moly or stainless, LH and RH. 3.3" and 3.6" cartridges.

4. the Empire East Africa Rifle, a specialty rifle made on the Granite Mountain Arms 98M action. Empire is GMA's largest customer. GMA actions are also purchased in quantity by British makers. The GMA action is a purists action, C-ring, chrome-moly, LH and RH. This action comes in 4 sizes from Kurz with a .700 dia bolt to Magnum 3.9" with a .750 dia bolt. We have made rifles on all sizes, but their Express Magnum (3.6", .700 dia) is the most popular.

Empire is introducing the 98L, engineered from the 98S, for cartridges from 2.85 to 3.6" COL. This action will be available in the Legacy and Liberty rifles. The 98K, on which we have earned our reputation, will remain available as a $250 option.

The Empire Legacy Rifle on the 98K was awarded Gray's Best by Terry Wieland. Our large percentage of repeat customers is testimonial to our quality. We also offer a unique guaranty of quality and accuracy.

Re Dakota, I admire their high grade rifles; they are the dominant player in this market. We believe our rifles are a better value than other rifles on the market. An Empire Legacy in Guide Grade has XX walnut, stainless barrel, weatherproof coating, accuracy guaranty, rings, sling, quality hard case, chambered for any SAAMI cartridge that will safely fit into the action, with all of the ergonomics like bbl length, LOP and weight customized to your spec, for $3,995 complete. The Empire Standard Rifle with the same features is made on the 98S action which can only be compared with the GMA and Prechtl/Golmatic, in Professional Grade XXX Turkish completely customized for $5,595. The Empire East Africa Rifle is a completely custom magnum Mauser, set up as an Express Rifle (the most commonly ordered finish grade) for $8,495 -- compare the Johannsen or the Sig Mauser at $10,500 to $12,000. Price delta can be attributed to exchange rate, import fees, and costs for distribution.

Three other notes: First, am a big believer in "integral" components. Our quarter ribs are integral. Bolt handles are integral (not welded on). We provide a large number of completely integral barrels --Q-rib, recoil lug, bbl band sight, and swivel. These barrels are slow-machined. Applying heat to a barrel cannot help accuracy. May not ruin it, but cannot help. Second, we seek out, select, test, and use the best components available. Third, I personally shoot every rifle. This helps keep Murphy pretty well in the closet.

I welcome e-mail and telephone inquiries anytime. Would also like to hear about ways in which we can improve our rifles. My direct line is 603.469.3152, please call. --George

George Sandmann, President
The Empire Rifle Company LLC
Premium Hunting Rifles
ph: 603.469.3152
fx: 603.619.8918
www.empirerifles.com





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George
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35788 - 13/08/05 11:21 PM

Gentlemen: this thread has caused me to give our web information an update. I hope it shines light through the fog. Please call or e-mail me directlty, always enjoy a conversation about rifles and cartridges. --George

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nitro476
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #35805 - 14/08/05 06:35 AM

If I were going to spend 15K on a bolt rifle, I would certainly talk to Steve Heilmann about building the total package. He is probably one of the best in the business and he gets his work completed in a timely fashion. His metal work is incredible and his stocks are just as good.

Edited by nitro476 (14/08/05 07:04 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Quality of Empire Rifle Co. Mausers? [Re: George]
      #35832 - 14/08/05 09:25 PM

George

Welcome to NitroExpress.com.

I hope you find it an enjoyable and useful forum to visit and participate in.


Gentlemen,

As "George" is from Empire Rifles, you can ask questions directly to the source.

I hope it is useful both for members of NitroExpress.com and Empire Rifles.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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