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skeet2atlow8
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Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
6.5x54MS on black bear
      #355522 - 24/07/21 08:27 AM

I may have an opportunity this fall to hunt black bear here in Ontario. Has anyone any experience using 6.5x54MS on black bear? While there are several rifles I could take out, my 1903 is calling.

--------------------
Skeeter


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #355524 - 24/07/21 09:48 AM

No experience on NA/Can game, but advice is free:

Use a good bullet and shoot straight!

Very straight...!

Good luck! Post photos when the deed is done.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Marrakai]
      #355526 - 24/07/21 01:51 PM

Same as Marrakai/Tony……..bigger bear, smaller bear……heart/lungs will kill but may run a fair distance. Break 'em down with a shoulder shot.
Seems that the 6.5 bullet offerings, that will feed in a 1903, are reported to be quite variable as to penetration and expansion? (Hornady 160 grain round nose)

6.5x54 MS at standard velocities with the 156-160 grain bullets ought to get the job done, but then our bears here are 200-350lbs….not huge.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: 3DogMike]
      #355536 - 25/07/21 08:23 AM

Those 6.5x54 MS rifles have shot many many many very large animals in Africa, especially with its original long bullets. The 6.5x55 (which yes is slightly faster) is used extensively in Scandinavia to shoot many moose (or elk as they call them). Choose a good bullet, put it in the right place and you have a dead animal.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: HeymSR20]
      #355556 - 25/07/21 06:21 PM

ZERO experience with bears, but from my complete armbair reading, I think a 6.5x54 mm MS with 160 gr or similar bullets would make a cool black bear rifle and with no problems.

Looking forward to hunt stories!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Igorrock
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: NitroX]
      #355562 - 25/07/21 11:34 PM

Our best known modern time bear hunter Väinö Heikkinen shot more than 30 bears and most of them with VALMET combination gun. It´s rifle caliber is 6,5x52R.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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skeet2atlow8
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Igorrock]
      #355599 - 27/07/21 09:39 AM

Thanks for all the feedback! Lots to think about. I’ve got 160 and 156 gr RNSP in stock, and will likely stick with them- Norma, Woodleigh, PPU and old CIL. They shoot well in my 1903 and feed smoothly. Nosler 140gr Partitions and Speer Hot-Cor 140gr also shoot well, but don’t feed well compared to the long 156/160’s. I guess I could have a Partition in the chamber and 160’s in the magazine.

I’m also playing with an MS1908 stutzen (DST) rechambered to 8mm-06 as it is a nice piece, in the same style/platform. This is an interesting piece that proves the value of checking everything before shooting! It started life as a 8x56MS, was later rechambered and stamped on the barrel as 8x60S. Still later it came to be rechambered again, but not marked as such, in 8mm-06, with a shorter case length of 62.0mm (any longer and won’t chamber). It was originally fit with a front claw mount with a vertical split ring at 1”, and has a rear side base that is no longer removeable, using a soldered weaver ring on the flat. Some reloads and load data came with the rifle, and was traded for at local gun show for a Sedgley 1903 Sporter. It does well with 170 and 200 gr Speers.

Decisions, decisions. Now to wait until October!

--------------------
Skeeter


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JHeath
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Reged: 26/07/21
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #355620 - 28/07/21 07:16 AM

People kill them with bows and muzzleloaders. Trainloads were killed with .30-30s and .25-35s.

We moved to prime grizzly territory, with white tail deer and black bear. The issue here is that the report of a rifle is called a "dinner bell" to grizzlies who arrive when you are dressing your black bear with your .260 propped against a tree 20' away. The option is to hunt small deer with a .338. Bow hunters carry pepper spray.


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Dogfish858
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Reged: 08/08/15
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Loc: Western Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: JHeath]
      #356355 - 26/08/21 03:26 AM

From what I've seen, you may have trouble making a bear stand still when it's dead. Chest shots do work, eventually, but not like it would on a deer. To make a bear die dead you need to shoot it in the head or spine. It doesn't really seem that it matters what you shoot it with; if you don't shoot it in the spine or head, it'll run away, two or three hundred yards, up a mountain, with three shots through the chest, over slash, up a tree, then die. (.308 Win)

Or it'll not know you're there when you shoot and run towards you, necessitating an African moment as two or three people start shooting a running bear thirty feet away. (30-06)

Or it'll run headlong into a deep ravine and die in a creek at the bottom. (7 mag)

Or through the neck, where it just dies. (7 RUM)

That was two weekends, five guns, in British Columbia. FWIW I was the gun that didn't get one!

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?

Edited by Dogfish858 (26/08/21 03:31 AM)


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skeet2atlow8
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Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Dogfish858]
      #356364 - 26/08/21 11:22 AM

Dogfish858 I’ll keep that in mind!

--------------------
Skeeter


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Dogfish858
.300 member


Reged: 08/08/15
Posts: 190
Loc: Western Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #356371 - 27/08/21 12:40 AM

I suppose remember that they use those paws to beat on eachother to no effect, and use those same paws to swat their prey to death, so it's fair to state that what kills a deer does not kill a bear. What amazed me on butchering these animals was just how strong they are. Every inch is built like a reinforced elastic band. Even their ribs are turned sideways like deck stringers.

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Dogfish858]
      #356376 - 27/08/21 02:32 AM

Just saw this post..

I have used anything from a .223 to a .375 H&H to kill bears.. Black Bear to Alaskan Browns..

Hit correctly they die quickly..they have small lung capacity..

As others have suggested, use a good bullet and take out the lungs/heart.. they will not go far if at all.. my experiences.. while not a ton, have taken over 10 thus far.. a few just being a nuisance around the ranch.. one was killing chickens in the yard one morning.. --.223 was all it took.. 55 gr soft points.. Shot another large 22 yr old that was on a dead cow .. shot it with my .243 using .70 gr ballistic tips.. While not my ideal choice, it worked and what I had on me at the time..

I prefer A-Frames or Trophy Bonded if I am specifically going after bears..

Used Winchester factory ammo on an Alaskan Brown bear.. took 2 shots on that one.. hit him broadside at about 60 yards.. he dropped got back up, spun and ran towards the timber..got one more in him as he was running.. he was dead about 80 yards into the high grass and trees..

Took a guy out one day to hunt black bears.. he forgot the clip to his rifle so gave him mine to shoot when we found a big boar breeding a sow.. he wounded it..low and back in the guts.. guy emptied my rifle trying to him him as he was headed our way.. guy ran back to me and said "better load up, we have a pissed off bear coming our way".. Was a 280AI.. I got 2 - 140gr Nosler Accubonds into my rifle before the bear come over the ridge to me.. shot him once in the chest.. DEAD..

Hope this helps..


--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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skeet2atlow8
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Ripp]
      #356655 - 08/09/21 10:14 AM

Well, black bear season opened today. I’ll keep this updated as things get underway. Good luck to anyone else who’s heading out to hunt.

--------------------
Skeeter


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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 118
Loc: BW
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #356656 - 08/09/21 01:48 PM

Weidmannsheil!

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #356662 - 09/09/21 02:21 AM

Quote:

Well, black bear season opened today. I’ll keep this updated as things get underway. Good luck to anyone else who’s heading out to hunt.




Ours opens in 7 days.. there has been a smaller black bear in the area.. we had a calf get hit by lightning a few weeks back..he devoured that thing in about 5 days..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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skeet2atlow8
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Ripp]
      #356664 - 09/09/21 11:19 AM

Good luck Ripp!

--------------------
Skeeter


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skeet2atlow8
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #357246 - 05/10/21 03:58 AM

Quick update- I’ve now sat on 9 occasions and have seen great bears on camera, but only a few smaller bears in the daylight. They’re hitting my bait barrel regularly and are eating a great amount of oats with molasses, corn, and popcorn.

Some observations: I now understand the value of No1 and No4 reticle in a low power scope. I’ve got a Leupold 1.5-5 VX3 and the crosshairs are really hard to pick up against a bear in the waning light. It seems either a bold reticle and/or an illuminated one is called for. I cannot believe how dark their fur is- it’s like looking at a black hole, very hard to distinguish shoulders or elbows on front legs.

They are noisy eaters. From 35 yards you can hear them eating and scraping at the ground.

Also, “ tingling” is too weak a description and “ clenching” over-states the feeling of climbing down from a tree stand at last light knowing there are three bears within 50 yards of where you stand! This is not deer hunting, for sure.

I’ll be back out tonight for a 3-7pm sit. Here’s hoping BooBoo, Yogi,or Smokey show up.

--------------------
Skeeter


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #357248 - 05/10/21 08:46 AM

I think this is still Monday the 4th Oct.
Note, if in a stand, your bullet will hit high by a couple to 3 inches depending on the height and range & height of scope on the rifle.
Black bears are dull black, most of the time with few to no features visible on their sides, making the actual angle of the bear difficult to see/recognize.
If possible, through the front shoulders/spine in a broadside shot is best.
A good hit through the lungs, broadside usually results in a short trail, even with a big bear. The lungs are up close to the leg line & do not extend back onto the side very far, like a deer.
Good luck.
Oh - appears to be about 6:45PM in Ontario now.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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skeet2atlow8
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: DarylS]
      #357287 - 08/10/21 11:46 AM

I’ve heard it said that there ar only two kinds of hunters- those who have lost game, and those who will. I seem to be in the first category.

Went out Monday afternoon and had a good size bear come out an hour before last light. I watched it for the ten minutes or so that it stood in every possible way other than broadside. Finally got a broadside presentation at 35 yards, aimed halfway up the body, about a hand span behind the front leg (which was forward). Fired a 140grain Nosler Partition from the 1903MS 6.5x54. The bear growled, bit at its onside flank and rolled twice, then got up and ran obliquely from right to left towards the end of the trees abutting a reed and cedar marsh. I reloaded quickly and got a going-away shot with a 160gr RNSP that I called as hitting somewhere between the shoulders right as it disappeared into the tree line/marsh. I felt that they were both solid hits, and that id find the bear piled up close to where it was last seen. No crashing sounds, no moaning.

I waited fifteen minutes, then went in to look. No blood or hair at shot-site, no blood on the trail. Went to marsh-same results. Had the land-owner come out to help look. Long story short, nothing found to track, his dog didn’t pick anything up and after 2.5 hours we called it off until morning.

In the morning, a good 150yards from the shot-site, in the cedars abutting the marsh, one dinner-plate site of red blood ( not bubbly lung, no green, just red-muscle blood) was found, with two further spots of small deposits on leaves within ten yards, and then, nothing. Nothing at all. We searched for a further three hours in all directions. None of the marsh grass had any blood on it, which would have showed up nicely on the yellowed and dry grass, and nothing further was found. After searching out to 350 yards or so from the shot site, we stopped.

The bear is unrecovered.

I have put the rifle aside and will range test to see if it was knocked out of zero, or some such. I’ve gone over it in my mind and am confident that the shots broke well. I am a decent tracker, as is the landowner, and am confident we missed nothing. Might we have pushed a wounded bear? Possibly. Could it be a grazing wound that bled just a bit, or I was it one of those timed when thick fur and fat stop the bleeding from reaching the ground? If a solid double lung hit, then I would have expected to find a nasal-spray of blood where we saw it had left blood behind.

Needless to say, it is a sad result, and I am gut-sick about it. I’m not off hunting bears, just very disappointed in the outcome and trying to record what’s happened so as to avoid a repeat in future.

So is the 6.5x54 good on bear? My short answer is I don’t know.

--------------------
Skeeter


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Dogfish858
.300 member


Reged: 08/08/15
Posts: 190
Loc: Western Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #357289 - 08/10/21 12:48 PM

Seriously (and I get your disappointment, been there), they only die dead if you shoot them through the head or spine, after which you shoot them again. They are too tough otherwise.

Basically take everything about shooting a deer and forget it and pretend you're shooting an elephant.

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: Dogfish858]
      #357296 - 09/10/21 04:46 AM

That sucks skeeter.
here's an Ontario bear shot this fall by a young lad from a tree stand.
https://i.ibb.co/TwHKjn7/800-pound-Ontario-Black-Bear.webp

Reported to be 803 pounds field dressed. Currently awaiting the 30 day drying time for skull measurement.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39063
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #357323 - 10/10/21 05:37 PM

Quote:



I waited fifteen minutes, then went in to look. No blood or hair at shot-site, no blood on the trail. Went to marsh-same results. Had the land-owner come out to help look. Long story short, nothing found to track, his dog didn’t pick anything up and after 2.5 hours we called it off until morning.

In the morning, a good 150yards from the shot-site, in the cedars abutting the marsh, one dinner-plate site of red blood ( not bubbly lung, no green, just red-muscle blood) was found, with two further spots of small deposits on leaves within ten yards, and then, nothing. Nothing at all. We searched for a further three hours in all directions. None of the marsh grass had any blood on it, which would have showed up nicely on the yellowed and dry grass, and nothing further was found. After searching out to 350 yards or so from the shot site, we stopped.

The bear is unrecovered.

I have put the rifle aside and will range test to see if it was knocked out of zero, or some such. I’ve gone over it in my mind and am confident that the shots broke well. I am a decent tracker, as is the landowner, and am confident we missed nothing. Might we have pushed a wounded bear? Possibly. Could it be a grazing wound that bled just a bit, or I was it one of those timed when thick fur and fat stop the bleeding from reaching the ground? If a solid double lung hit, then I would have expected to find a nasal-spray of blood where we saw it had left blood behind.

Needless to say, it is a sad result, and I am gut-sick about it. I’m not off hunting bears, just very disappointed in the outcome and trying to record what’s happened so as to avoid a repeat in future.




Sad news but it happens. Anyone who has hunted game has or will eventually loose an animal.

Never hunted bear so have no comments based on any experience. But one of our European members 93mouse I believe is a specialist on following up wounded game and especially bear, with his hound. For other European hunters in his area who have lost game. Obviously there is a need for such services. And I guess bear is regularly needing follow up.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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skeet2atlow8
.224 member


Reged: 04/11/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: NitroX]
      #357327 - 11/10/21 04:21 AM

Thanks for your comments, Gentlemen. In the spirit of this site’s name and with the intent of treating them as tougher than thought, I’m now carting a Ruger No1 in 450/400NE 3” to the stand. This is a 2” group shooter at 100 yards with Hornady .411 300gr FNSP (a 405WIN bullet) at 2200fps. Dogfish, I’ve heard you loud and clear..

Brought the 6.5MS to the range on Friday morning and checked it’s zero with the same load I had used on Monday- 2”group at 100 on the pin. Not sure if this makes me happy or not! It should have been a good hit.

Now, if the rest of the season presents another opportunity, I’ll be back to report results.

--------------------
Skeeter


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: skeet2atlow8]
      #357330 - 11/10/21 08:21 AM

Sorry to hear that you lost your bear skeeter - loss of any game is not what it is really about.
I've done the same myself, a supposed good hit & then nothing!
The 450/400 outfit will certainly have a lot more thump, lets hope you can bring home your trophy next time!


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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: 6.5x54MS on black bear [Re: 93x64mm]
      #357347 - 13/10/21 03:37 AM

I feel sorry for you but loosing game probably happened to all of us and there is nothing one can do against. I assume that your shots with the 6,5x54MS were well placed in spite of the "dark on black" difficult conditions, however probably not immediately lethal, the reason for which the beast was able to go and die in a distant location; shifting to 450/400 is probably the best thing to do as "too much gun" is often the solution with strong game. I would personally go for 8x68S, 9,3x62 or 9,3x74R if I had to shoot bears from a high seat in low-light conditions; lighter calibers can do the job, of course, but I think in day light best, when one can 100% be sure of the shots' placement. I'm sure you'll get another black bear soon, at another occasion!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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