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Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR
      #346152 - 25/10/20 09:11 AM

I have received a question regarding the viability of a set of U/O barrels in .450/400 3 inch NE on a Valmet DR. I presume a 412.

Quote:

You opinion on 450/400 NE No.3 in a O/U valmet?
.
some one is offering me custom barrels for the valmet in this caliber I already have the 9.3x74r
.
he said he used handloads in it but didn't say what pressure ..I would just use factory to be on the safe side of it
.






So the questions I am guessing are, is the Valmet action strong enough for chamber pressure and also back thrust pressure?

Any other considerations? Wall thickness? Of the chamber? Should be OK. The barrels, must have been bored out?

I do not know what the handloads currently being used are?

The largest chambering I have heard of, was a .375 JDJ (?). I think that was it. A rechambered .375 Winchester I presume? A .400 would be a new beast.

--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346154 - 25/10/20 09:40 AM

Found the advert:

Quote:

The rifle barrels are 26” long and the gun is well balanced with a little muzzle heaviness. This is a two-barrel set with a set of 26” long 12 GA ejector barrels with screw chokes.
.
The double rifle barrel set was built by expert gunsmith John Taylor.
.
It was made by taking a set of ejector shotgun barrels and removing the shotgun tubes from the monoblock. Then a set of Douglas blanks were turned to fit and the barrels soldered to the monoblock.
.
An adjustable muzzle piece For windage adjustment and a Barrel wedge for elevation adjustment were machined and mounted.
.
There is a set of excellent Recknagel iron sights with a red bead and yellow rear notch. The sights are zeroed for 50 yards. The barrel also accepts Valmet scope mounts.
.
The rifle is very accurate and both barrels shoot to the same point at 50 yards.
.
The stock is a factory Valmet left hand stock with three interchangeable butt pads for various lengths of pull. I do have a factory right hand stock that I can substitute for the left hand stock.
.
With the double rifle barrels the gun weight 9 lb, 4 oz, perfect for this caliber.
.
This cartridge is the 450/400 3” Nitro Express cartridge. The rifle is pleasant to shoot with recoil being a heavy shove instead of a sharp jab as in high velocity magnums.
.
Included are 7 boxes of Hornady factory Ammo, (3 solids, 4 soft points). Also there are 75 once fired empties, 41 handloads with 400 grain soft points, a die set and some bullets




--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346167 - 25/10/20 11:38 PM

I really quite like this.

IF IT IS SAFE?

A set of .450/400 NE barrels on a Valmet would be so handy. Or a set of .375 H&H Flanged or Super barrels. Would be so versatile.

Add the 12-bore barrels, combination barrels in .223 and 7x65R and a set of medium barrels, mine ar e.30-06, not to mention the 9.3x74R barrels, what couldn't one use it on or for?

IF IT IS SAFE FOR SUCH ROUNDS TO BE CHAMBERED IN SUCH AN ACTION

--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346235 - 27/10/20 11:31 PM









Valmet 412 custom 450/400 3” NE with 12GA barrel set

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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Edited by NitroX (06/06/21 04:04 AM)


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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346236 - 27/10/20 11:35 PM

Hi Guys, I am keen to hear if such a modification is reasonable or sensible? Please comment.

I might consider getting a set of .400 or .375 barrels for my Tikka if it is possible.

--------------------
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xausa
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346239 - 28/10/20 02:55 AM

When I was a student in Germany in 1970, I ordered a Krieghoff Teck O/U double rifle with interchangeable barrel sets in .458 Winchester Magnum, .375 H&H Magnum and 20 gauge 3" magnum. The Teck was made only on a 16 gauge frame at the time, hence 12 gauge was not an option. I later ordered a 12 gauge Teck, when it became available, with interchangeable barrels in what I christened the .450 C&W Magnum, essentially a rimmed .450 Watts. The first set accompanied me on all my trips to Africa and proved itself time and time again, taking elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, eland, and greater kudu.

The Teck action is a very strongly constructed box lock with "Kersten" double locking lugs on the sides of the upper barrel and a double under lug construction. I have since had a set of .500 NE barrels made for another 12 gauge gun. All my O/U double rifles are fitted with low power scopes.

[URL=https://app.photobucket.com/u/xausa/a/8f7c221a-a8ba-405c-86ed-527e174e9c74/p/68d48ac6-d7a0-479b-a434-845d04853910]
[/URL]

[URL=https://app.photobucket.com/u/xausa/a/8f7c221a-a8ba-405c-86ed-527e174e9c74/p/6dcfad03-48be-4617-97f6-e2f23947ec02]
[/URL]

[URL=https://app.photobucket.com/u/xausa/a/8f7c221a-a8ba-405c-86ed-527e174e9c74/p/bfeefaad-7522-472c-b008-6447bb18dd57]
[/URL]

[URL=https://app.photobucket.com/u/xausa/a/8f7c221a-a8ba-405c-86ed-527e174e9c74/p/8e3d8460-ac4a-4ce5-98ed-0ea97fa22d58]
[/URL]

A Krieghoff Teck O/U 12 gauge identical to mine is on sale at the German auction site eGun. So far there have been no bids and the price is quite reasonable. https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=12634635

Another Krieghoff Teck, this one a double rifle in .30-'06, is for sale on Guns International for considerably more, but the illustrations clearly show the features of the action contributing to its strength: The Kersten bolts and the double under lugs. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/882210859


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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: xausa]
      #346241 - 28/10/20 03:17 AM

I would think that, here in the USA, guys like Aaron Little, Mike Rowe, Ken Owen, or J.J. Peredeaux might be qualified to make a guess as to safety/suitability of the action?
Surely there must be a gunmaker in Oz that would have the knowledge?
-or-
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--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: 3DogMike]
      #346244 - 28/10/20 04:35 AM

Thanks. At the moment the offered firearm is not for me, From an enquiry.

But I am personally intrigued.

Does anyone know the formula for calculating backthrust/backthrust pressure?

As the Valmets take 9.3x74R I wonder how that compares to a .375 Super or H&H Flanged or a .450/400 3" NE?

The Valmets also take a variety of medium cartridges.

--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346551 - 05/11/20 11:05 AM

I don't see why it wouldn't be suitable, NitroX, considering it is chambered for standard rounds developing 60,000PSI as a working maximum pressure.
all that remains is finding someone to do the work.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: DarylS]
      #346556 - 05/11/20 12:46 PM

Quote:

I don't see why it wouldn't be suitable, NitroX, considering it is chambered for standard rounds developing 60,000PSI as a working maximum pressure.
all that remains is finding someone to do the work.




Not an engineer or gunmaker, but I thought chamber pressure AND back thrust were very relevant to break open guns. ???

The larger case of bigger bores being relevant. ???

Therefore my queries here.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #346569 - 06/11/20 04:50 AM

Yes, the larger case/rim diameter would be relevant.
What I was getting at, was the back-pressure from a 60,000psi round was likely in excess of the .450/.400 43,000(CIP Pezio)PSI round.

--------------------
Daryl


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Hunter4752001
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: DarylS]
      #346577 - 06/11/20 01:24 PM

Calculating "back thrust".
A bit of physics first, pressure and thrust are different concepts. Pressure is a force applied over a particular area. Thrust is a measure of force.
P=F/A (Where P is pressure, F is force and A is the area.)
=> P x A = F
In this our firearm example, the force we are interested in is the so called "back thrust". By the formula above the back thrust is equal to the pressure times the area it acts on. The area the pressure acts on is the area of the inside read of the case head. (Note Area equals Pi x radius squared ie area varies by the square of the radius => double the radius = 4 times the area)


An example of the above is to consider the 5.56 Nato vs the 458 SOCOM. Both are designed to operate in AR15 family of rifles. Both cartridges use the same locking surfaces. The 5.56 has a max pressure of between 55,000 - 62,000 psi (depending on standard and pressure measuring protocol) wheres the 458 SOCOM has a max pressure of 35,000 psi. The difference in safe max pressure is due inside case head area.

Edited by Hunter4752001 (06/11/20 01:39 PM)


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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #346621 - 08/11/20 10:43 AM

This site was pretty good (and hoping reliable) for pressure specs.
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

I ended up using the rim diameters and case diameters as I didn't have the internal measurements but this will hopefully be apples and apples with F=pxA

Here are the back thrust numbers for a number of cartridges found in the Valmet with rim diameters.

9.3x74R 10290 for 49k

30-06 10620 for 59k

12ga 6000 for 12k

450-400 12000 for 40k

If we use case diameters instead:

9.3x74R 8497

30-06 10620

12ga 9540 (looked at 19k proof)

450-400 9292

I don't think that I messed up any of the math and the case diameter numbers seem more reliable (and in line) with cartridges chambered in doubles.

Good luck.

Tom

Tom

--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: Tom_H]
      #349076 - 10/01/21 05:56 PM

luv2safari, any comments?

--------------------
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #349080 - 11/01/21 01:36 AM

NitroX,
No gun maker here, but I too studied the double rifle characteristics before buying mine. Bought some books and did my home work. The two most helpful books were as follows:
Building Double Rifles on Shot Gun Actions by W Ellis Brown, gunmaker in Colorado.
This book directly addresses your questions.
and
The Double Rifle Primer by Cal Pappas -well known African hunter, gun collector, and author in Alaska.
Very informative and a good read.

It appears that a couple of the previous posters on this thread have also done their homework.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: crshelton]
      #349162 - 13/01/21 01:36 AM

Quote:

NitroX,
No gun maker here, but I too studied the double rifle characteristics before buying mine. Bought some books and did my home work. The two most helpful books were as follows:
Building Double Rifles on Shot Gun Actions by W Ellis Brown, gunmaker in Colorado.
This book directly addresses your questions.
and
The Double Rifle Primer by Cal Pappas -well known African hunter, gun collector, and author in Alaska.
Very informative and a good read.

It appears that a couple of the previous posters on this thread have also done their homework.




I may already have both books, certainly Brown and I have a couple of Pappas's books. Yes I have heard of him, he is a member on NE.

I'll have to dig out those books when I get around to it. No rush.

Asked the question on the forums as it doesn't sound like extraordinary informatio0n to work out. Or off the top of someone's head. No worries. But very interested in knowing if the Valmet action and double rifle is capable of larger than 9.3x74R or similar powered cartridges. Real future porject possibility.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (06/06/21 03:34 AM)


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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: Tom_H]
      #349164 - 13/01/21 01:37 AM

Daryl, Hunter and Tom,

Thanks for those replies.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #354100 - 06/06/21 03:57 AM

Re-adding the photos and also information from the original advert from my files. Re-adding the images to the earlier post as well.

Valmet 412 custom 450/400 3” NE with 12GA barrel set

Seller was : Greene Sporting A+(465)
Gunbroker.com
Buy Now Price
$5,000.00
Advert CLOSED

Comments:

I have bought and sold Valmets for more than 20 years. The Model 412 was designed from its inception as a switch-barrel system. Rifles, shotguns and combination barrels can be fitted to the receiver with ease. The firing Pins are small diameter to withstand centerfire rifle forces without the pins sticking in primers. The best of the lot are the 412S models which this action is. It has an anti-doubling device that is especially nice on a rifle in this caliber. The rifle barrels are 26” long and the gun is well balanced with a little muzzle heaviness. This is a two-barrel set with a set of 26” long 12 GA ejector barrels with screw chokes. The double rifle barrel set was built by expert gunsmith John Taylor. It was made by taking a set of ejector shotgun barrels and removing the shotgun tubes from the monoblock. Then a set of Douglas blanks were turned to fit and the barrels soldered to the monoblock. An adjustable muzzle piece For windage adjustment and a Barrel wedge for elevation adjustment were machined and mounted. There is a set of excellent Recknagel iron sights with a red bead and yellow rear notch. The sights are zeroed for 50 yards. The barrel also accepts Valmet scope mounts. The rifle is very accurate and both barrels shoot to the same point at 50 yards. The stock is a factory Valmet left hand stock with three interchangeable butt pads for various lengths of pull. I do have a factory right hand stock that I can substitute for the left hand stock. With the double rifle barrels the gun weight 9 lb, 4 oz, perfect for this caliber. This cartridge is the 450/400 3” Nitro Express cartridge. The rifle is pleasant to shoot with recoil being a heavy shove instead of a sharp jab as in high velocity magnums. Included are 7 boxes of Hornady factory Ammo, (3 solids, 4 soft points). Also there are 75 once fired empties, 41 handloads with 400 grain soft points, a die set and some bullets. The Americase shown in the photos is included. There are slots for four barrel sets, receiver, fore end and accessories. The shotgun barrels have three inch chambers and have five choke tubes and a choke tube wrench. You can take this set on Safari and shoot your big game, then hunt fowl with the shotgun. The asking price is less than my investment, and still considerably less than the cost of most double rifles. And these rifle barrels are adjustable for point of impact.












































--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Russ_Gould
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #354639 - 26/06/21 03:26 AM

I know of two 412s barreled in 375RDS which is more powerful than the H&H version. I have personally rechambered a 375 Win to 375 JDJ and shoot heavy loads through that (300 gr bullets) since the barrels are pretty fast twist, surprisingly so given the original chambering. My guess is the blanks that were available at the time were made for the H&H. I rechambered another, on an engraved action by Ben Shostle, and sold that many years ago.

The RDS is based on the 450 basic case which is pretty fat and that's both good and bad. Good, pressures are lowered in a fatter case; bad, back thrust is heavier, exponentially so. There was a guy in AK who built a number of these RDS wildcats and sold them with a set of dies. He also did some smaller wildcats on the same case.

Both my 375JDJ and one of the RDS rifles had the solder of the vertical regulation wedge fail, probably due to vibration. I had mine micro TIG welded by one of the best tool welders in the Pacific NW, and the owner of the RDS had his redone with the original silver solder which was messy. I don't know what loads that gent used (well I did at one time but I forget) but they were pretty stout. He stated he used 375 Weatherby load data if I recall. I was with him when he shot an elephant, buffalo and lion with that rifle. A few years later he passed and the rifle was acquired by "Stealthmedic", one of the many unlicensed firearms dealers on the usual websites, and found to have an unusual feature: there was a manual extractor slot filed in each breech to allow the ctg to be extracted using a screwdriver. I also note that when the rifle was in Africa, the gent who used it thought you could swap these barrels sets around willy nilly and the barrels were a poor fit on the action ... the action did not close fully, not by a yard. The owner explained this was necessary because the action "flexed" and the cases stuck in the chambers! In reality, he had too much headspace. The person who bought this rifle bought a mess.

Then I acquired a similar set of barrels in 375 RDS, these unmolested. I fitted them to a new 412 action I have (correctly) and got a set of dies from CH4D. I still have that rifle. I feel it's ok with H&H data, esp given the larger case, but I would not push it past that point and see no reason to do so.

Over the years, I attempted to convince the manufacturer of the 512 to offer a heavier caliber but they refused. 9.3x74R was the heaviest caliber they offered.

The entire series ... 412, 512 and the 612 have now been discontinued.

--------------------
http://doublegunhq.com - specializing in fine English, German and American double guns; and http://bigfivehq.com, specializing in safari rifles and hunting safaris


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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: Russ_Gould]
      #360541 - 16/01/22 12:37 PM

Thanks Russ for your reply. I previously missed your response. Interesting comments.

A .375 H&H Flanged is of interest as it is a "mainstream", well sort of, cartridge. Perhaps too similar to my 9.3x74R? The idea is a one world rifle for everything from medium to big game. A plains game rifle to a in the thick stuff rifle. Not too powerful for medium game hunting, but still acceptable for buffalo and maybe elephant.

Should it be a .375 H&H Mag rifle for ease of ammunition supply if needed? The extractors might be an issue? The Valmets take rimless cartridges already in barrel sets. No magnum belts though.

Instead of 375, or a .450/400, maybe a .416 Rigby No.2 Rimmed ?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #365843 - 24/05/22 10:34 PM

Could or should a .416 No. 2 Rimmed Rigby be made on a Valmet 412/Tikka 512 ?

If a .450/400 3" is possible, is a .416 R No2?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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luv2safari
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Re: Question re a .450/400 3" NE set of barrels on a Valmet DR [Re: NitroX]
      #373522 - 27/01/23 07:04 PM

Hello John,

I had a Valmet 412S that had a set of 375 FM and a set of 300 H&H FM. The gun handled both just fine, but flanged ammo and especially brass was made from unobtainium here in the US.

Someone came along and wanted the set badly enough that I $old it to him. .

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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