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Russ_Gould
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Reged: 20/12/06
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Loc: OR, USA
Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner
      #354638 - 26/06/21 02:58 AM

Some time ago there was a discussion of an H&H in this caliber with unusual proof marks. So I just got in a very interesting Jones underlever hammer gun by Thomas Turner. For one thing, the entire outer surface of the barrels is machine matted! Even the sides of the rib are matted. Then, according to the SN it was made in 1925, however the proofs are very early BP proofs showing a bore number 56 and no dram markings at all. Just a crown over BP in script. The action also has the tower icon that W&C Scott use on their early guns so they probably made the action. Looking down the barrels, they have rather shallow rifling which is pristine, of very slow twist maybe 1:60 or so. None of the usual BP frosting or worse, pitting. It was used for the intended purpose because it was a tad loose when I got it and had to be rejointed. So the bores are not pristine due to lack of use. The chamber is for a 3 1/4" necked ctg, rim circa 680, base circa 580. The bore slugs around .458 with 7 grooves. So I am pretty sure this is the 500/450 "Magnum" 3 1/4" ctg. But 1925? Cannot be with those proof marks. And it's been shot with the NFB load not black, or the bores would be frosted. Oh, it weighs 10lb. Will be posting pics when I get them done.

--------------------
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TH44
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: Russ_Gould]
      #354652 - 26/06/21 09:11 AM

Late Thomas Turner serial numbers may vary, my own TT .450/400 Farquharson S/No. is arguable over 10 years
Look forward to the pics, should be a good pickup

TH

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: TH44]
      #354678 - 27/06/21 11:32 AM

Mercuric priming compounds and cordite will frost a barrel way worse than black.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: MikeRowe]
      #354682 - 27/06/21 03:03 PM

Quote:

Mercuric priming compounds and cordite will frost a barrel way worse than black.



Was going to say, I have many rifles which have assuredly seen only black powder use with excellent bores.
In fact, some of my early nitro rifles have worse bore condition than the black powder rifles.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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lancaster
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: Huvius]
      #354683 - 27/06/21 04:20 PM

if cleaned properly all the time BP guns can be like new today

don't know if you can say the same about guns shoot with cordite

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Russ_Gould
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Reged: 20/12/06
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: lancaster]
      #354689 - 28/06/21 02:27 AM

pics here

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...31&cdn_bp=1

--------------------
http://doublegunhq.com - specializing in fine English, German and American double guns; and http://bigfivehq.com, specializing in safari rifles and hunting safaris

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: Russ_Gould]
      #354690 - 28/06/21 03:17 AM

I doubt anyone in 1925 would make a none-rebounding hammergun with pre-1887 proofmarks.
The serienumber is a deflector. The gun is a pre-1887 made gun.

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: rigbymauser]
      #354691 - 28/06/21 07:16 AM

Quote:

I doubt anyone in 1925 would make a none-rebounding hammergun with pre-1887 proofmarks.
The serienumber is a deflector. The gun is a pre-1887 made gun.



Those were my thoughts also. I can understand someone wanting a hammer gun but not non-rebounding hammers.

--------------------
RB

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3DogMike
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: 85lc]
      #354705 - 29/06/21 01:38 PM

????? bet this one was a stunner when new --- be interesting to see the maker address on the barrels that is (presumably) just out of the photo on the right tube. That would easily narrow the date range.
As well a photo of the proof marks and serial number would be interesting.

Wondering if it needed to be rejointed because of later use with full nitro loads, dolls head shows a lot of wear & tear.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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Russ_Gould
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Reged: 20/12/06
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: 3DogMike]
      #354712 - 29/06/21 10:37 PM

Fisher St Birmingham, SN 2521

The dolls head was tigged and refitted at the same time the rifle was rejointed.

Twist is way too slow for anything heavier than about 350 gr

--------------------
http://doublegunhq.com - specializing in fine English, German and American double guns; and http://bigfivehq.com, specializing in safari rifles and hunting safaris

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3DogMike
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: Russ_Gould]
      #354728 - 30/06/21 10:27 AM

Quote:

Fisher St Birmingham, SN 2521

The dolls head was tigged and refitted at the same time the rifle was rejointed.

Twist is way too slow for anything heavier than about 350 gr



Oh, well in that case.....I defer to Russ' expertise.

That said, there WAS a .500/.450 3 1/4 NITRO Velopex 365 grain bullet loading that may well have been used to beat it into needing a rejoint.
Said 365 grain load would have been just as stable as your noted 350 grain.....not to say regulation would have been great, but maybe it was acceptable to whomever was using it?
IF reregulated for Nitro 365's; then likely not reregulated in England, it would have to have gone thru reproof and be so marked.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
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Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: 3DogMike]
      #354738 - 01/07/21 02:53 AM

If this gun was a .500/.450 3 1/4 BPE, I believe the standard load used a 325 gr bullet.

Without proof marks for nitro (and considering the gun's construction and slow twist), it would appear to me to be an earlier black powder express rifle.

--------------------
RB

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Loc: Denmark
Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: 85lc]
      #354740 - 01/07/21 05:10 AM

The dolls head ext. doesn't seem done right. Normally the gunsmith would cut the rip 2" further up to gain strength from the new soldering/refitting.

Edited by rigbymauser (01/07/21 05:11 AM)

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: Another mystery 500/450, this one by Thomas Turner [Re: rigbymauser]
      #354741 - 01/07/21 06:47 AM

!925 date is doubtful, records indicate the Thomas Turner of Fisher Street closed in 1912

According to Bill Fleming's book "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" the .500/.450 3 1/4" Black Powder Express was offered variously in 270, 325, and 365 grain bullets while the Nitro for Black Powder cartridges were offered in 365 grain bullet by Kynoch & Eley, also with Eley offering a 325 grain bullet.
H&H BP Express ammunition was offered in 330 grain and 375 grain bullets as well as a 475 grain bullet loading.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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