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ironoxide
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Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice
      #354473 - 21/06/21 08:21 AM

I bought my Pedersoli Kodiak double with two sets of barrels. 58 cal patched round ball and. 50 cal with a fast twist. This is about the .58 cal barrels.

I've had the gun for two years and when I first got it I developed a fair load for it that puts both barrel shots in the black(around 8in) at 100m consistently when shot in standing position with a stock for left hand support. However, back then while shooting for groups I didn't care much that the gun was shooting to the left (both barrels).

This happens when shooting from a bench, over cross sticks when seated as well as in standing position with left hand support. If I wrap the fingers of my left hand over the barrels the magnitude of the effect increases.

I used a laser boresight to verify barrels are straight. I must be doing something to cause the gun to shoot left.

I have to tell you I have many other (single barrel) guns that I shoot fine. I also dry fired the gun many times (with small lead cups over nipples) to make sure I'm not flinching or jerking the gun. When dry firing the gun doesn't move.

I also tried very low loads to check if maybe the recoil is going the wrong way and it made no difference with charges as small as 40 grains when there is almost no recoil.

I don't know what am I doing to cause it, but it must be something particular to double rifles. Please instruct me on proper shooting technique and what error may be causing this? Alternatively, what books do you suggest I get? I already have Cal Pappas book on doubles. It has a short section on shooting technique, but it seems I need more info (or practice?). However, so far practicing allowed me to get tighter groups, but it did nothing for the "shooting left" problem.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354479 - 21/06/21 04:55 PM

What is the group size ie to the left? Hw far to the left? Does anyone else shoot the gun and does it still shoot to the left?

If it is shooting OK from multiple positions and it is consistent, can you tap the sights over a bit to compensate? If so easy fix.

As you probably know a double if shot from a rest should be held in your hands, and your hand resting on a rest, not the DR. If you are shooting like this, or from freehand, then it is shooting to the left. Adjust the sights, I<O.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: NitroX]
      #354487 - 21/06/21 08:52 PM

When I shoot at 30m I'm getting a per barrel group size of 1.5inch. I shoot each barrel at a separate target. Both groups land in the same 2~3 in circle.

It up s shooting about 5~6 inches to the left. It has a Pedersoli style "Ghost sight". To correct for such huge error I have to move the sight 3~4 mm (over an eight of an inch).

However, today I went to the range with the purpose of diagnosing it further and I found some additional clues.

I swapped the short 25.5in .58 cal barrels for longer 28.5in .50 cal barrels and those were shooting right at the point of aim. The gun is a lot more front heavy with long .50 cal barrels.

Then I swapped the short .58 cal back and I tried to vary my hold. I discovered the following:
- Holding strongly the grip with left hand (like a double shotgun) and pulling pretty hard into the shoulder I'm getting pretty good group sizes, but the gun prints to the left as described.
-Holding strongly around the front of the grip with fingers around the barrels (the sight is pretty tall I assume to accommodate just this kind of grip) as described by Cal Pappas in his book. Pulling the gun into the shoulder a lot less I'm getting classic "crossed barrels" with the right printing about 3~4 inches to the left and the right an equal amount to the right.
- Finally, holding with fingers wrapped around the barrel and the grip same as above, but focusing attention on the left hand to ensure it is NOT pulling the gun into the shoulder, just holding it on target (even pulling forward a little bit). The right hand on the pistol grip rests the gun into the shoulder, almost no pulling force. This way I managed to hit the point of aim few times with both barrels.

This very elaborate hold is pretty difficult to replicate exactly. I managed it quite a few times when shooting at 30m, but none at 50m. I was expecting shorter lighter barrels will be easier to shoot. It turns out it is the opposite :-o

However, I have a 11in howdah in the same caliber. I shoot it successfully with left hand supporting the bottom of the pistol grip (no holding to the barrels) letting it recoil up. (With replaced front sight) it shoots right at the poa.

I guess I have an answer why this happens. Still if there are any double rifle shooting technique books or tips I would be grateful to hear about them

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93x64mm
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354514 - 22/06/21 07:44 AM

Ironoxide your rifle must be recoiling in a certain fashion to throw its pills either left or right, there may be a possibility that shooting your left & right barrels (individually at separate targets) you are moving the rifle on your shoulder (different angle on your shoulder )& hence doing so without realising.
Just a mad theory.
Consistency is the key as you are finding out, can you try left & right barrels at one target only; best to get a mate & call your shots as you go.
Keep trying mate, I think though you aren't too far off licking this problem!

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EDELWEISS
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354518 - 22/06/21 09:03 AM

I have a Pedersoli SxS muzzleloader 12ga. The wedge is loose when you squeeze the barrels into the stock. If just holding the gun you dont notice it but when you press the barrels and stock together the wedge slides loose. I havent shot it yet but I expect it will need to be tightened

--------------------
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85lc
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #354526 - 22/06/21 01:05 PM

Edelwises makes a good point about build quality. I had a Pedersoli 58 cal DR that was fun to shoot once I bedded the rifle. It looks like you can switch barrels and get different results. I cannot imagine both barrels having exactly the same, precise dimensions so that they seat identically. I would think you need to select one set of barrels as your primarily barrel set and bed the stock to those barrels.

93x64mm makes a good point in that any shifting of the rifle hold will change how a double rifle recoils.

I have seen one person shoot a double rifle and get small group and the second get big groups. As the rifle and loads didn't change, I believe that the difference he=ad to do with how tightly/firmly the shooters held the rifle. I think you are seeing this issue.

--------------------
RB

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: 85lc]
      #354528 - 22/06/21 05:35 PM

Edelweiss thanks for the tip. My Pedersoli 12ga side by side also has a wedge looser than all other guns I have. Not so loose to fall out, but if one squeezes the stock right you can remove it without taping (simply pushing with a coin for example).

Also regarding Pedersoli fit and finish. The trigger guard didn't seem sharp to me when I touched it, but it sliced my trigger finger once (only a mm deep - still that's no good!). I highly recommend inspecting your trigger guards for sharp corners and addressing them.

Regarding barrels fit. The kodiak arrived with factory fitted. 58 cal barrels. Those seem pretty tight. No amount of squeezing the stock seems to loosen the wedge. It has to be tapped out every time.

50.cal barrels were bought as new spare and came with an undersized wedge slot. I had to open it up slightly with a needle file for them to fit. The wedge is tight there also.

Regarding barrels to wood fit it seems to be pretty good, but one doesn't know until one checks with soot etc. I may have to do this at some point.

Having more consistent results with all my single barrel guns (and the longer 50 cal double set). I decided to inspect the. 58 cal barrels better. I used the boresight during a night when there was a bit of fog outside so I could see the beam. I read it online it is typical for double barrels to be aligned down and to opposite direction. In this set of barrels the left is very slightly pointing right so it seems to be almost at the point of aim even at a distance of 100m. The right however points much more to the left. I estimate 5~8 inches at 50m.

So far I have always been shooting right first then left. Perhaps it was meant to shoot left first. Then when the set is warm to shoot the right? I have to try that next time I'm at the range.

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354556 - 23/06/21 10:38 AM

Ok I went to the range again. I shot both barrel sets interchangeably and the difference in difficulty of getting good results is like night and day.

After coming back I decided to inspect the barrels closely using my workshop measuring tools (surface plate etc.). I noticed .50 cal barrels are straight as expected. .58 cal both barrels are bowing inward mid way. One around 10 thou the other 40 thou. This is in addition to a twist of around 10 thou. This is definitely wrong.

I also have to say that there was a cosmetic problem with the barrels. When I got it first I noticed they were painted not blued. Local Pedersoli distributor offered to swap them for me or give me a discount on another purchase for almost thf entire value of spare barrels. As individual barrels were shooting fine and I thought I can always reblue them I chose the latter and I got the .50 cal barrels for a very low price.

So I decided to fix it. I plan to remove the ribs first, then to straighten both barrels (hopefully without separating them) and finally to regulate them so they shoot
I removed soft solder from the muzzle side by heating it gently with a propane torch and blowing it out with compressed air. I planned to de solder the ribs, but it turns out they are silver soldered :-o

Still I should be able to fix them hopefully.

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85lc
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354557 - 23/06/21 12:12 PM

ironoxide,

It would be great to see your progress as you correct your Pedersoli double rifle, particularly the targets when you are finished.

--------------------
RB

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: 85lc]
      #354565 - 23/06/21 08:35 PM

Sure. It will take me a while most likely. I just recently "finished" fixing a single barrel 20.4mm Belgian smoothbore(That's 9 bore, the muzzle is coned and measures 21mm so I initially thought it was an 8 bore). I say "finished" in quotes, because I still have two tiny screws that hold the wedge plate to make as they were missing. As the wedge holds everything together it doesn't affect the functionality of the gun, but it is not complete yet. That one sat in my workshop for 2 years... Hopefully the Kodiak barrels don't take that long :-)

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354569 - 23/06/21 10:42 PM

I've managed to unsolder the barrels. It seems Pedersoli brazed them with some sort of yellow looking high temperature braze. The alloy let go around 600~650 deg C. I have a propane forge so I ended up opening forge doors so the barrel could pass through under a burner. I heated parts of the barrels to around 600 deg C (monitored with a contactless thermometer). Then after pulling the barrels out and putting them on a steel table I quickly hit the rib with a small propane torch that brought the temperature high enough to melt it in a small area.

If this was normal carbon steel I think heating the barrels to 600 degrees C would ruin the surface due to oxidation. However I found out previously Pedersoli uses 30CrMo4 (chromium manganese steel). Thanks to high chromium the surface is somewhat protected. I also checked that this steel will not be weakened by heating it to 650deg C Its usual tempering temp is 650c - it anneals at over 800 deg C. This is probably why they chose it.

You can see on my picture how unusual grey color the steel has after. Normal carbon steel would've looked a lot different.

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85lc
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354576 - 24/06/21 12:37 AM

Very good write-up with picture. Would like to see further write-ups as you proceed.
Interesting steel selection by Pedersoli.

I had thought that Pedersoli brazed the back half of the barrels and then soldered the front half which allowed them to fine tune regulation. From your writeup, it appears that Pedersoli brazed the full length of the barrels together. If I read that correctly, that would prevent them from fine tuning the regulation.

I shot my Pedersoli 58 cal DR with Hornady Great Plains 505 gr conical bullets driven by 120 grs of 2F. It was a fun gun to shoot, strong push for recoil but the accuracy probably was more paper plate size. I questioned whether the accuracy was due to lack of fine regulation.

Thanks for your write-up.

--------------------
RB

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: 85lc]
      #354611 - 25/06/21 02:32 AM

Thanks. Yes, the only bit of soft solder that was there was in the front to close the gap between the ribs at the muzzle. Everything else was brazed. The top and bottom rib were brazed as well as the ramrod guides and the wedge slot. The barrels themselves have a flat surface milled on their side for their entire length. Near the breech this flat is quite substantial. Near the muzzle it is almost invisible. This flat surface is touching on the entire length of the barrels, but they brazed only the final 5~7cm or so (2~3in). The rest was held together by the braze in the ribs. Theoretically it would be possible to pound a wedge and split the muzzles after ribs were desoldered, but my barrels were already bowed inwards. I didn't want to add to that bow even more.


Now I have to find out if the barrels are bent only on the outside but bored true, or bent normally (inside corresponds with outside). So far I made two pins to measure exact groove diameter (.578~.579). I turned the pins on a lathe slightly oversize. Then I sanded them down until they fit into the muzzles. Next I plan to make longer version of those pins. How long? As long as I can make them in a consistent size. 15cm (6 in) being z minimum. Then I should be able to "feel" bends as the pin should bind in the barrels.

Also I need to find out the correct starting point for the regulation. In another thread about a fairly powerful DR build the author said he is starting the regulation with the barrels 40 thou nearer (center to center) at the muzzle that the breech. Pedersoli's originall "regulation" was approximately 4mm so 160thou! I'll start another thread in the build forum to ask. If I don't get any answers I'll have to make some sort of jig to be able to shoot the barrels prior to joining them to test.

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93x64mm
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354615 - 25/06/21 07:40 AM

ironoxide
keep chugging along mate, sounds like you're on the right path.
There may be a few here (gunsmiths) that could help out, but I haven't heard from them in a long while. Hopefully they will chime in & send you a PM!
Keep us posted on your progress, there are a lot here that is wishing you well on this project!
93x64mm

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354624 - 25/06/21 12:36 PM

I had a .58 Kodiak once. With 85gr. 2F GOEX the barrels crossed by 2" at 50 yards along with the right barrel shooting 2 1/2" lower than the left barrel.

At 100gr. of the same powder, the barrels shot one on top of the other at 50yards.

With 110gr. of powder, the barrels shot parallel, shooting 2 overlapping groups with their centres exactly bore axis apart.

With 120gr. of the powder, the barrels reversed what they did with 85gr. of the powder, being that the barrel crossed with the right barrel shooting exactly 2 1/2" lower than the left barrel, as well as 2" to the left.

This just shows that 'they' need to be tested with a variety of loads.

The .562" pure lead ball with .0215" ticking patching, shot identically to a .574" pure lead ball with the same patching & powder charges. I did not find my hold changed anything as to point of impact.
I rather had fun with the successive right the left rapid fire hits on the steel gongs on our trail walk.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: DarylS]
      #354629 - 25/06/21 08:54 PM

Hi Daryl, mine did the same regarding regulation. With 120gr the barrels were "regulating" into one group at 50m. The problem however was that the same barrels shot best with 75 grains. With 120gr required for "regulation" groups were the size of pizza box at 50m! Before I settled on 562 prb with a 10 thou patch I tested other sizes(570,575),patches, and conical (2 kinds of minie and a Real) etc.

All the "hold issues" arose from the fact I was trying to "make it work" with a lighter load than required for regulation. Even at 90 grains it shot acceptably (increasing beyond it spread group size greatly) and my "special" hold allowed it to recoil more to the side resulting in some success (maybe 30% of the time).

Also the right barrel shot groups half the size of the left even with best load.

So when I discovered both barrels are bowed (left much more) I thought I can improve on this significantly by straightening them and regulating them to cross less (for the best load).

Thanks 93x64mm.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354636 - 26/06/21 01:28 AM

Hi ironoxoide, with the load that shot into one group(100gr.), mine was shooting into less than 1 1/2" for 6 shots 3-each. at 50yards - that was with 100gr.2G GOEX. As these then diverged at 100, still they were only 2" apart, with a 4-5" group total, which I figured that load would do just fine for target shooting work. It did that.

I noticed you were/are using a .010" patch. With a .562" ball, that patch will not make it to the bottom of the grooves & barely makes any pressure on the tops of the lands - combination totals .582". With a .580" bore, that's .001" tight on each land. I am not surprised this shot a huge pattern with a decent load - 120gr.
For me, that is not a load to even try - waste of powder and lead.
Even with the .574" ball, I used the .0215" ticking or the 10 ounce denim for patches that measured .022". The newer 10 ounce I am using in most of my rifles and smoothbore with patched ball, is .021" thick, compressed.
I use Track's (www.trackofthewolf.com) mink oil or Neetsfoot Oil for patch lube for hunting.

Good luck with the regulation. Shooting parallel is the most "perfect" regulation, however shooting together at 50yards is also good as most don't shoot ML's much beyond 100yards.

I sold my rifle as I wanted it for moose and my target load was in the 120gr. to 140gr. mark. It crossed badly with those loads. It would have worked OK for close range shooting with the 110gr. load, but I wanted to be able to shoot to at least 150yards and it would not do that for me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: DarylS]
      #354642 - 26/06/21 04:15 AM

Quote:

Hi ironoxoide, with the load that shot into one group(100gr.), mine was shooting into less than 1 1/2" for 6 shots 3-each. at 50yards - that was with 100gr.2G GOEX. As these then diverged at 100, still they were only 2" apart, with a 4-5" group total, which I figured that load would do just fine for target shooting work. It did that.



That sounds pretty good. I would be 100% happy with that.

Quote:


I noticed you were/are using a .010" patch. With a .562" ball, that patch will not make it to the bottom of the grooves & barely makes any pressure on the tops of the lands - combination totals .582". With a .580" bore, that's .001" tight on each land. I am not surprised this shot a huge pattern with a decent load - 120gr.
For me, that is not a load to even try - waste of powder and lead.
Even with the .574" ball, I used the .0215" ticking or the 10 ounce denim for patches that measured .022". The newer 10 ounce I am using in most of my rifles and smoothbore with patched ball, is .021" thick, compressed.
I use Track's (www.trackofthewolf.com) mink oil or Neetsfoot Oil for patch lube for hunting.




Yes, that makes sense. I too wouldn't have chosen that ball size/patch combination at first. For a long time I shot it with 575 balls and 10 thou patch (I tried thicker patches. I think the absolute thickest I managed to hammer in was 16 thou).

Unfortunately good results were quite rare and I didn't enjoy having to hammer balls in. Then the gun spent a year in a safe...

Only recently I bought a Lee 562 round ball mold with an idea to give it a try. I tried the resulting balls (measuring 563) and I discovered they shoot pretty much the same as 575 despite being so much easier to load. I'm not sure why they work equally well as 575. Maybe they obturate enough as I'm using a rather fast 3f powder ,or it may be the lube combined with fouling that prevents blowthrough.

Once I straightened the barrels I'll definitely try all the other ball sizes again, but I would love to be able to continue using 562 as I really like the way they load.


Quote:


Good luck with the regulation. Shooting parallel is the most "perfect" regulation, however shooting together at 50yards is also good as most don't shoot ML's much beyond 100yards.

I sold my rifle as I wanted it for moose and my target load was in the 120gr. to 140gr. mark. It crossed badly with those loads. It would have worked OK for close range shooting with the 110gr. load, but I wanted to be able to shoot to at least 150yards and it would not do that for me.



Thanks. I wish one could hunt moose where I live(NE Poland). They were reintroduced into local forests in last 30 years and they bred to such numbers that they are a real road hazard. Every now and then I hear of fatal accidents involving them. I had some close calls myself. However, the law is still the same as it was 30 years ago when they were extremely rare and protected.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354650 - 26/06/21 08:40 AM

Interesting about the moose.
About the crown on the muzzle. If it is rounded and smooth into the rifling, it is much easier to load. The balls must also be pure lead ie: plumbers lead or better yet, is the thin sheeting they line X-Ray room walls with.
The .562" should be easy loading with a .018" to .021" patch, even if the balls are harder than pure lead.
10" at 50 yards is not a group, imho. My smoothbore 20 gauge shoots better than that by a long shot. It uses a ball .595" with a .021" patch.
That ratio is tighter, ball to bore, than a .563" ball in a .580" bore.

I do think a lot of your problems was with too loose a ball and patch combination.

If you want me to send you muzzle crown pictures and/or a short video showing loading my 58 Kodiak with .562" ball and .021" ticking patch with the 3/8" factory ram rod, just e-mail me (my profile has my e-mail address. I use a short starter having a 3/8" hickory shaft in a Moose-antler boss for the handle.
I show 2 methods of seating the ball and patch into the muzzle, as well as 2 methods of seating the balls on the powder. The "narration" is in English, however, you will see just how easy the loading is, with a good, smooth radiused muzzle crown.

The crown EVERY muzzleloading gun maker puts on the muzzle of their barrels, other than Jim Kibler and my brother, need work. Theirs are very close to being perfect.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: DarylS]
      #354662 - 26/06/21 11:13 PM

Quote:

Interesting about the moose.
About the crown on the muzzle. If it is rounded and smooth into the rifling, it is much easier to load. The balls must also be pure lead ie: plumbers lead or better yet, is the thin sheeting they line X-Ray room walls with.



The first thing I do when buying a new rifle is to round the top of the lands. All my new rifles have rounded lands at the muzzle. However, one has to differentiate rounding off the lands and coning the muzzle. I round off the lands by charging a one size too large for the gun caliber lead ball with a grinding paste, putting a wood screw into that lead ball so I can chuck it into a cordless electric drill. Then rotate the lead "lap" to achieve desired angle around the circumference of the muzzle. Sometimes if I detect any sharpness withy finger I'll take a very fine auto-pain sand paper (2000 grit) and wrap it around my finger to just break the remaining edges. How well this works you can see below. This is the right barrel of the set in question.

Then there is coning. That is a completely different treatment. I have two (bought used) guns with coned muzzles. Both have rifling opened up at the muzzle with a gentle slope in the first inch or two. I like how those guns load, but I haven't had a need to do that to any of my new guns. This is how a "coned" muzzle looks like. (yes it is a rifle and it shoots great - you can't even see the rifling it is coned so much).

Then there is everything inbetween those two.


As for lead I buy all my lead as "technologically pure" (next grade is analytically pure - you don't want to find out the price of that grade :-). I measure every batch with a fairly crude Lee hardness tester which shows me a 100 thou impression that translates to bhn of 5~6. That's soft enough for all my other rifles.

Quote:


The .562" should be easy loading with a .018" to .021" patch, even if the balls are harder than pure lead.
10" at 50 yards is not a group, imho. My smoothbore 20 gauge shoots better than that by a long shot. It uses a ball .595" with a .021" patch.
That ratio is tighter, ball to bore, than a .563" ball in a .580" bore.

I do think a lot of your problems was with too loose a ball and patch combination.




You are of course free to think that, but I'll point out once more I've tested all ball sizes I had available (562,570, 575) with all patch thicknesses I could get to load(8,10,15,23) with all loads. I went through a 1.5kg of powder in a week and following that I chose the ball/patch combo I like the most. Tighter combinations didn't shoot any better.

Now that I think of it. It is not uncommon at all in black powder muzzleloader shooting to use soft lead undersized projectiles. For example I have a Pedersoli "Hawken" 50 cal with a fast twist barrel. It shoots best with a heavy conical Pedersoli bullet made for it sized (with their hand sizer) to .503. It is so under size that is practically slides down the ( clean) bore with just the weight of the fiberglass ramrod on top.

At the other end of the scale is my "squirrel gun". The muzzleloader I show the coned muzzle of. It is a Pedersoli Plainsman .38 cal. made in 1970s. It shoots best with a 375 ball and 12 thou patch. That combination loads with (heavy) hand pressure into the muzzle coned to bore diameter.

Quote:


If you want me to send you muzzle crown pictures and/or a short video showing loading my 58 Kodiak with .562" ball and .021" ticking patch with the 3/8" factory ram rod, just e-mail me (my profile has my e-mail address. I use a short starter having a 3/8" hickory shaft in a Moose-antler boss for the handle.
I show 2 methods of seating the ball and patch into the muzzle, as well as 2 methods of seating the balls on the powder. The "narration" is in English, however, you will see just how easy the loading is, with a good, smooth radiused muzzle crown.

The crown EVERY muzzleloading gun maker puts on the muzzle of their barrels, other than Jim Kibler and my brother, need work. Theirs are very close to being perfect.



If you don't have to use any impacts to load that ball/patch combo you must have a coned muzzle. A 562 ball with a 21 thou patch will have a 0.604 diameter. For this combination to load with a press of a short starter you would have to have rifling 12 thou deep that you ground off entirely just as I show in my coned muzzleloader. Is this how your muzzle was?

I had no need to cone the muzzle in the Kodiak as it shot (per barrel) holes touching at 50m with the right load.

Would it shot well with 120 grain load if I coned the muzzle and used even thicker ball/patch combo? Maybe? Who knows. The problem is that it is a set of short barrels. 24 inches by the book. In reality 23.3 inch. Minus an inch for the breech plugs it is 22.3 inches. With such short barrels I'm reluctant to make any irreversible changes to the last inch or two of the barrel.

Now coming back to the subject of regulation. Having found no detailed information on the subject I looked at various videos and pictures of commercially made double rifles by well known makers. Judging by how muzzles look compared with breeches the regulation looks a lot wider than what Pedersoli does. Currently I'm leaning towards soldering the barrels with soft solder (so I can de solder repeatedly without causing any further high heat stress) for the barrels to "cross" at 50m and test. Then adjust from there.

As for straightening those barrels the pins I made to check straightness slide nicely through the entire length of both barrels. I think they would certainly bind if there was an internal bend. Therefore the bores must be true and what I thought were bends are just inaccuracies in turning the OD they did at the factory. Good.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354667 - 27/06/21 01:46 AM

The bottom of the grooves also have to be rounded,not just the tops of the lands.
The first picture you posted shows a too-sharp an edge at the bottom of the grooves.
A coned muzzle has from 1" to 2" of coning, a gradual tightening over that distance to the tops of the lands.
This sort of muzzle treatment loads harder with the rounded lands and grooves smoothing that I do - with a lathe and just a finger on the emery or paper, or with the barrel on the gun, rotating my hand and turning the gun 180degrees every 20 seconds or so.
From a machine-cut muzzle crown to a gently smoothed and radiused crown that I use, is usually only a 10 minute job.
The result is a crown that loads easily as the 'shape' of it moves metal & is the shape used for drawing metal.
Before:

After:


The "crown" of this muzzle is less than 1/8" deep, yet allows loading balls .005" under bore size with a .022" patch - easily, using a short starter.
My .69 has a similar crown (almost exactly) & I routinely use a .682" ball in the .690" bore, with a 12 ounce denim patch which I measure at .030" compressed hard. I have also shot it with same ball and a 14 ounce denim that I measure at .034" thick.
This rounded "shape" is the same as used in metal drawing dies.
Look at the filed muzzles of Jaeger rifles - both lands and grooves are filed out enlarging their size, although the muzzles appear to be "square". Closer examination shows they are filed out - they are not coned.

If you are happy with .010" patches - carry on. I'm done here.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: DarylS]
      #354673 - 27/06/21 09:33 AM

Quote:

The bottom of the grooves also have to be rounded,not just the tops of the lands.
The first picture you posted shows a too-sharp an edge at the bottom of the grooves.

A coned muzzle has from 1" to 2" of coning, a gradual tightening over that distance to the tops of the lands.
This sort of muzzle treatment loads harder with the rounded lands and grooves smoothing that I do - with a lathe and just a finger on the emery or paper, or with the barrel on the gun, rotating my hand and turning the gun 180degrees every 20 seconds or so.
From a machine-cut muzzle crown to a gently smoothed and radiused crown that I use, is usually only a 10 minute job.
The result is a crown that loads easily as the 'shape' of it moves metal & is the shape used for drawing metal.
Before:

After:


The "crown" of this muzzle is less than 1/8" deep, yet allows loading balls .005" under bore size with a .022" patch - easily, using a short starter.
My .69 has a similar crown (almost exactly) & I routinely use a .682" ball in the .690" bore, with a 12 ounce denim patch which I measure at .030" compressed hard. I have also shot it with same ball and a 14 ounce denim that I measure at .034" thick.
This rounded "shape" is the same as used in metal drawing dies.
Look at the filed muzzles of Jaeger rifles - both lands and grooves are filed out enlarging their size, although the muzzles appear to be "square". Closer examination shows they are filed out - they are not coned.

If you are happy with .010" patches - carry on. I'm done here.



I am. However it was interesting to see how you do your muzzles. Lots of people talk about it. Not many post pictures. If I have a rifle that shoots better with a very tight ball/patch combination I'll give your way a try.

Coming back to my .58 cal barrels. I decided to set the initial regulation for straight lines extended in line with barrels to cross at 50m. I soft soldered the barrels so I can split them easily and I made a precise wedge by surface grinding that allows me to start with half a mm(20 thou) per meter angle of convergence and to widen it up to exactly parallel if required. It is just temporary so is is not pretty yet. Here are some pictures.

Initial alignment. You can see the muzzle spreading wedge inserted and another tiny (tinned) wedge that will go between the barrels where the gap between milled surfaces is largest.
It is exactly 1mm thick (40 thou). I was wondering if I should make a long wedge to bridge the gap between the barrels in the back better, but I decided this is OK for testing. For the final soldering I might do that.


This shows in detail how the back is aligned. Unfortunately all surfaces there are angled so I had to use a 6mm (precision ground) round to support it like that to align. In the end I ended up with one barrel 0.2mm(8thou) forward :-( I'll shim it for testing and it will be fixed in the final soldering.


This shows the "muzzle spreading wedge" in its initial setting prior to soldering.


The barrels were moved to a cast iron surface plate for soldering. Soft steel wire was used to wrap them in strategic places (only in the back and where the wedges are present to avoid bending them). You can see the barrels are a perfect fit for this plate. An inch longer and I would have to use a workshop tabletop that is a lot less flat.


Barrels soldered before cleanup.

Muzzles as soldered before cleanup. Please note black permanent marker was used inside the muzzles and on barrel sides to prevent solder sticking where it shouldn't.


Final picture for today shows the barrels next to the stock. I just brass wirewheeled the barrels to remove most flux. That's why they look yellow. This "powdered brass" will wash off easily.


Next I have to clean up few globs of solder sticking up from the barrels (soldering was done upside down). Then make a set of temporary sights and solder them on. Also I have to decide if I'm going to solder the wedge holder or simply wrap something around the barrels and stock to mount them onto a stock for testing.

I also plan to make a contraption like one visible at the muzzle below to be able to move muzzles up/down in relation to one another. Not just wide/near.


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93x64mm
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #354686 - 27/06/21 09:56 PM

Steady as the ship goes Ironoxide, fingers crossed that your regulation test goes well.
It is always good to have a few different loads to test in your case just as well, you new arrangement might just like one of these loads & Eureka the works done, well apart from laying the ribs etc again!

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354751 - 01/07/21 05:49 PM

Thanks. It turns out my regulation was far too wide. When I tested it for the first time I thought "no way, there must be something wrong", but there wasn't.

I removed the part of the wedge that was extending in front of muzzles to avoid it having any influence. I made a piloted crown cutter and I recut the crowns (more info and pictures of that process on another forum I probably shouldn't mention by name). I even tried Daryl_S's muzzle. I had to shape it by hand, because my crown cutter was made for 45 degree crown and I didn't feel like making a new one after spending lots of time on the first one.

However, with regulation set to converge at 50m 24 grains seems to shoot close to parallel. 75 grains goes very wide (almost 4.5mm per meter!).

If one simply divides the separation by distance and subtracts resulting divergence from the barrel angle the result is that they should "cross" even more than Pedersoli set them to originally. At the same time I know it was shooting cross-eyed at original setting. This in my opinion proves it is a non-linear problem (at least with black powder, perhaps it is with nitro).

So after testing I unsoldered the barrels and I resoldered them almost the same as they were originally, but with one important exception. I didn't solder the muzzles together so it is possible to spread them apart by inserting shims.

Once I finish the screw contraption (as shown on the regulation picture done by pros) I'll be able to set them as desired.

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ironoxide
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Re: Pedersoli Kodiak. 58 double shooting left - technique advice [Re: ironoxide]
      #355323 - 19/07/21 02:57 AM

A quick update. I made the muzzle setting device pictured below and after a total of 4 resolderings I'm happy with the regulation.


In addition I tried few other things including Darryl's muzzle shape (as pictured above). Thicker patches again, different dry lube system.

I also made hand reamers with pilots that fit into the bores with half a thou of clearance to square muzzles to the bores (90 degree reamers) and to cut new 45 degree crowns. Here is one 45 degree reamer.


So after all this I have the following results. If I load both barrels with the current best load of 80 grains of 3F with .575 round ball, a 230gram per sq meter cotton fabric patch (it squeezes to slightly under 10 thou - unsqueezed it measures 18 thou if I remember correctly). I can be pretty sure of getting holes touching at 50m for first two shots. At 100 m my first two shots are an inch and a half apart. When I continue shooting the group grows a bit to 3 inches at 50m,but as I'm shooting standing resting the back of my hand on shooting sticks then the gun on that I suspect it is me l. The gun seems to be perfectly capable of putting all shots into one big hole at 50m. It is shooting very consistently with as mentioned before first shots (when I'm well rested) always going to the same poi.

This is a typical 8 shot group(both barrels - 4 each) at 50m.


Compared with my single barrel and smaller caliber guns that is nothing to write home about, but I'm pretty happy with the consistence of the results and I read in "Shooting the british double rifle" by Graeme Wright 3 inches at 50m fot a round ball shooting double is average performance. So that's fine.

I set the regulation for 80 grains (the most accurate load) to shoot slightly converging to cross at around 75m. It is possible to load 110 grains to shoot parallel with maybe 20% less accuracy than the best load. I also tried a huge 640 grain Pedersoli 580 minie bullet. It goes wide even with 80 grains of 3f. 80 grains of 2f sends them almost parallel, but the fps is pretty low at around 1000. So I decided to stay with patched round balls.

Everything is soldered back together now including ramrod holders etc. I just have to put some solder in the front of the muzzle to make it neat and rust blue it. However, I'm going to leave it be for a while to make sure I don't come up with any other ideas to modify it before rebluing. I'll post reblued pictures when it is done.

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