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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Another Poor Man’s Slug gun.
      #354282 - 12/06/21 10:42 AM

After contemplating buying the Ugartechea Slug Gun, I started to search the old posts about just cutting the chokes off an old shotgun and making my own. It seems as if quite a few guys made them with good results. I wanted a classic look so I purchased a vintage Simson 12 gauge. Hopefully it shoots decent groups with 22 to 24” barrels. Any recommendations on the best slugs to try out first?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354284 - 12/06/21 11:33 AM

My 1898 SxS with "fluid steel" bls. shot very well with .682" 482gr.) round balls supported by the cupped base cut off a WWAA12 white trap wad.
With smokeless powders, I put one of those cut off cups cup-down over the powder, then 1/2" fiber wad + whatever cards were needed to get the proper height for a standard crimp.
With black powder, a full 7 drams (190gr.)2F GOEX. I used one hard card over powder wad, then the cup-up under the ball to centre it, then star crimped. I might have needed 2 card wads over the powder - I don't remember.
I used 4756 and 7625 powders, however Blue Dot, Long Shot and Steel might be even better. Loading data for extrapolation can be found in Lyman's Shotshell loading manual. I suspect loads to about 1,800fps are quite doable. The BP load ran 1,500fps in my 24" tubes (cut off from 29") as-did the smokeless loads.
both shot to the sights (dovetailed into the rib) out to 100 meters.
Incidentally, the black powder load kicked roughly twice as much as the smokeless load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: DarylS]
      #354285 - 12/06/21 11:37 AM

Quote:

My 1898 SxS with "fluid steel" bls. shot very well with .682" 482gr.) round balls supported by the cupped base cut off a WWAA12 white trap wad.
With smokeless powders, I put one of those cut off cups cup-down over the powder, then 1/2" fiber wad + whatever cards were needed to get the proper height for a standard crimp.
With black powder, a full 7 drams (190gr.)2F GOEX. I used one hard card over powder wad, then the cup-up under the ball to centre it, then star crimped. I might have needed 2 card wads over the powder - I don't remember.
I used 4756 and 7625 powders, however Blue Dot, Long Shot and Steel might be even better. Loading data for extrapolation can be found in Lyman's Shotshell loading manual. I suspect loads to about 1,800fps are quite doable. The BP load ran 1,500fps in my 24" tubes (cut off from 29") as-did the smokeless loads.
both shot to the sights (dovetailed into the rib) out to 100 meters.




How did you finish the end of the barrels after cutting?

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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354288 - 12/06/21 11:44 AM

Did a lot of testing with different cast and factory slugs with a couple of poor nan's doubles, .682 and .690 round balls worked the best out to 50 yards, I'd sit mine in an AA12 shot cup on top of an over shot card sitting on a fiber wad, then another fibre was and over shot card roll crimped in.

The longer foster style slugs works best for factory slugs followed by a Lyman diablo slug sitting on two over shot cards.

But in the end the round ball loads proved the best to use with the shotgun, although I preferred a coach gun with imp/cyl chokes better then strait cylinder barrels.


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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: 260rem]
      #354289 - 12/06/21 12:23 PM

Quote:

Did a lot of testing with different cast and factory slugs with a couple of poor nan's doubles, .682 and .690 round balls worked the best out to 50 yards, I'd sit mine in an AA12 shot cup on top of an over shot card sitting on a fiber wad, then another fibre was and over shot card roll crimped in.

The longer foster style slugs works best for factory slugs followed by a Lyman diablo slug sitting on two over shot cards.

But in the end the round ball loads proved the best to use with the shotgun, although I preferred a coach gun with imp/cyl chokes better then strait cylinder barrels.




Not being one to start reloading at my age, I was hoping to find some off the shelf slugs. Maybe Federal or something similar. I am expecting the gun to be delivered this coming week.

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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354291 - 12/06/21 01:58 PM

GB slugs were the best shooting slugs I found and were some of the best priced too.
They have also proven perfectly capable of taking Sambar hinds too so they have plenty of killing ability. 👍


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: 260rem]
      #354292 - 12/06/21 03:13 PM

My recommendation would be for integral base-wad solid slugs, anything from the Brenneke range, or the Rio Bala Blindada (personal favourite).

As mentioned previously a few boars and buffalo have been brought to bag by the Rio base-wad projectile fired from my modified William Griffiths "double-slugger".

But hey, the fun is in trying anything and everything till you get comfortable with a combination that meets your expectations.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DarylS
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Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354301 - 13/06/21 01:41 AM

Quote:


How did you finish the end of the barrels after cutting?




Filed them square and finished with a bit of 320 grit wet/dry on the end of my thumb for perfectly crowned tubes with just a slight radius.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: Marrakai]
      #354351 - 15/06/21 12:37 PM

Quote:

My recommendation would be for integral base-wad solid slugs, anything from the Brenneke range, or the Rio Bala Blindada (personal favourite).

As mentioned previously a few boars and buffalo have been brought to bag by the Rio base-wad projectile fired from my modified William Griffiths "double-slugger".

But hey, the fun is in trying anything and everything till you get comfortable with a combination that meets your expectations.




In your article, you mentioned that your double slugger was regulated. Was it regulated by trying different ammo or was it regulated by a gunsmith?

--------------------
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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
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Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354353 - 15/06/21 02:06 PM

Quote:

In your article, you mentioned that your double slugger was regulated. Was it regulated by trying different ammo or was it regulated by a gunsmith?



Regulated specifically for the RC4 Evolution slug, by me.

Bit of a story there, but if you follow the "RC4 Palla" link from that article, you'll get the gist of it.
Only problem was straightening the top rib before relaying it, the trauma had been fairly extreme and the rib ended up both bent and twisted, so it relayed a bit wobbly. Was supposed to be a temporary job pending a replacement top-rib, but as with a lot of my "projects" it just worked, so is yet to be redone!

I should add that my experiences with the RC4 slug made me a little uneasy viewing 260rem's pics of the GB slug in the Beretta Silver Hawk thread. I might respectfully suggest testing them on something akin to hide, flesh and bone before tackling anything that can bite back.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: Marrakai]
      #354355 - 15/06/21 06:42 PM

I've used the GB slugs on plenty of pigs in my old Adler and in the better Dickinson straight pull.
They definitely do the job and seem very similar to the RC4's, blackhawk also make a version that's so similar the the GB's I wouldn't be supprised if they came from the same factory.
Unfortunately the two pig properties I visit fell on hard times, one opened up to pay to play and got shot bare and the other went 3 years without rain and had to destock and even the roo's left it.
Once they pick up again I will be back out chasing them again.

But slugs and pigs just seem to go together, I'm even a fan of SSG buckshot for the up close stuff.
It's great to be able to roll some bunnies and foxes with the same gun you chase the pork with too.

I've gone the poor man's double before and it did a great job, I even scoped it for a while. Thats when I switched to the Adler and then the Dickinsons but I just had to switch back to the double, for some reason I just find doubles to be much better guns and feel better in my hand.

--------------------
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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: 260rem]
      #354389 - 17/06/21 10:41 AM

I picked up the Simson today and although it was advertised as nice wood and clean bores, I was pleasantly surprised (actually ecstatic ) at the condition. Case hardening and bluing is close to 100%. Wood is excellent. Action (lock up) is extremely tight. It is almost “as new” tight. I believe the gun is a 1960s -1970s vintage. With a gun this nice, I decided to send the barrels to Michael Orlen in Massachusetts and have him cut the barrels to 25”, fill the end and add screw in chokes. I would like some simple express sights, but may opt for a fiber optic bead of some sort. He also installs those. When complete, I have a gun that I should be able to hunt hogs with at 50 yards or so and also hunt some birds. It will be lots of fun coming up with a slug that suits the gun…….I hope. Any suggestions on some low profile sights that can be dovetailed to the raised rib.

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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354395 - 17/06/21 07:31 PM

I'd either avoid screw in chokes or loctite them in, changing chokes just doesn't seem to work with these types of guns IME.
Even a custom made fixed block that's been braised or similar and then opened up as a choke would be good, if more expensive and much more hastle, I'd personally leave it cylinder and get it jug choked for my money.
I'd avoid a big front sight and put a larger bead on it with a low more open type rear sight.
You don't want rifle sights so much as accuracy isn't as good as with a rifle and speed is a big factor, even a ghost ring would work better.

I've had great success with a 1-4 scope, still a favourite despite it being no good for small game.

Keep it simple and keep it fast, it's a gun for running game, not a gun for precision stationary shots.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.


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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: 260rem]
      #354402 - 18/06/21 12:25 AM

I found a screw in aperture for a ghost ring sight that I should be able to screw in the rear of the solid rib. I was thinking of a fluorescent (Raybar Type) sight for the front. Michael Orlen in Massachusetts has installed several sets of screw in chokes for me before. His work is amazing. The only reason for adding screw in chokes is that if the gun doesnt work out for slugs, I can still hunt some birds with it. I never had a problem with his work.

https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/proddetail.php?prod=7201

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Life is for Service

Edited by tarawa (18/06/21 12:28 AM)


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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #354408 - 18/06/21 10:03 AM

That should work good, a gun like this works best with the Kiss principle.

Being able to use it for birds, rabbits and big game is what's always been the most appealing thing about the poor man's double.
It's also best not to do too much to them until you see how well they regulate as its always a bit of a craps shoot up until that point.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.


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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: 260rem]
      #354785 - 02/07/21 12:03 PM

I will post pictures when the barrels are finished.

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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Another Poor Man’s Slug gun. [Re: tarawa]
      #357597 - 25/10/21 01:38 PM

Barrels are cut to 25”. New Raybar front site. Now to the range. I cant seem to post a picture.

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