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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
      #354106 - 06/06/21 06:56 AM

The two are not the same these days (if they indeed ever were such).
Very informative and extensive commentary here:
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/500-jeffery

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: 3DogMike]
      #354112 - 06/06/21 09:12 AM

Interesting - all in the body length and shoulder angles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Loc: Alaska
Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
      #354126 - 06/06/21 05:47 PM

I am having one built on a Sarco Mauser action right now. I had to get my brass from Australia. Bought the dies used and have just now found the Woodliegh bullets. The components seem to be the hardest part of getting this built.

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grandveneur
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: casper50]
      #354127 - 06/06/21 06:20 PM

One also have to pay attention to what you have for reloading dies.

I bought in 1999 an 500 Jeffery 3-Die Set from RCBS. After resizing, the cases look more like 12,7x70 Schüler cartridges than 500 Jeffery cartridges.


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
      #354148 - 07/06/21 11:27 AM

If I were building a rifle, I’d stick with the original Schuler spec chambering. That way, any factory ammo for the Schuler or Jeffery will chamber.
Then, neck sizing and crimping would be all that would be needed when reloading, particularly when you own only one 500 rimless.
I believe that Jeffery simply offered their rifles in the already existing 500 rimless (Schuler) rather than developing the cartridge themselves. They did, however, load it with cordite rather than German flake powder which could account for their advertised velocity and energy numbers.
A few years ago, on another forum, one member was offering cash to anyone who could prove that Kynoch or any other British munitions company actually made the 500 Jeffery loaded with cordite. He (and the rest of us) are waiting to learn whether they actually did or if the flake powder of the original was simply carried over into British production.
Nobody has produce an original loaded with cordite yet to my knowledge...

In this period advertisement, notice that Jeffery makes no mention of actually developing the 500 rimless cartridge, just building rifles for customers wanting a bolt action over a double.

https://revivaler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/The-500-Jeffery-1-theexplora.com_.jpg

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Huvius
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Huvius]
      #354149 - 07/06/21 11:35 AM

BTW, I have an original Schuler Jumbo but think that the 500s built by Benny Laubscher are the cat’s meow if an original Jeff isn’t in the cards.
Something about his big bolt guns is just right IMO.
As an aside, I did see a genuine W.J.Jeffery built on an Arisaka action not too long ago on Gunbroker.
Wasn’t a 500 but it was a revelation to me that Jeffery had built ANY rifles on that action!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylS
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Huvius]
      #354150 - 07/06/21 12:14 PM

LOL - all this talk of .50's has me thinking I need to do some more shooting with my .50/95 Model of 76.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: DarylS]
      #354151 - 07/06/21 12:55 PM

Quote:

LOL - all this talk of .50's has me thinking I need to do some more shooting with my .50/95 Model of 76.




I’m thinking the exact same thing of my .500s!
The Schuler, the 3” Nitro Army & Navy falling block, and my 50/110 Ruger No.1 all need to be exercised!
Not to mention four 577/500 No.2s (two 1871 Westleys, the Field, and my Turner double) as well as my Henry 500 double.
Got me to thinking that there’s not much reason to own or shoot anything under a 450!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Huvius]
      #354152 - 07/06/21 03:01 PM

Quote:

BTW, I have an original Schuler Jumbo but think that the 500s built by Benny Laubscher are the cat’s meow if an original Jeff isn’t in the cards.
Something about his big bolt guns is just right IMO.
As an aside, I did see a genuine W.J.Jeffery built on an Arisaka action not too long ago on Gunbroker.
Wasn’t a 500 but it was a revelation to me that Jeffery had built ANY rifles on that action!




Huvius
you wouldn't have a link or photos of that Arisaka action worked over by W.J.Jeffery would you?
Would make an interesting talking piece for sure!


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Ithaca375
.224 member


Reged: 09/08/19
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Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: casper50]
      #354153 - 07/06/21 03:08 PM

Hey, you mind sending me the link to that brass? I still cannot find any in stock but RCC, although I'm not familiar with the australian market.
Thanks!


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Ithaca375
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354154 - 07/06/21 03:09 PM

I'd be pretty interested in seeing it too! Since that's basically what I'm trying to do, some pictures would be awesome

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1278
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Huvius]
      #354162 - 07/06/21 05:11 PM

Quote:

If I were building a rifle, I’d stick with the original Schuler spec chambering. That way, any factory ammo for the Schuler or Jeffery will chamber.
Then, neck sizing and crimping would be all that would be needed when reloading, particularly when you own only one 500 rimless.
I believe that Jeffery simply offered their rifles in the already existing 500 rimless (Schuler) rather than developing the cartridge themselves. They did, however, load it with cordite rather than German flake powder which could account for their advertised velocity and energy numbers.
A few years ago, on another forum, one member was offering cash to anyone who could prove that Kynoch or any other British munitions company actually made the 500 Jeffery loaded with cordite. He (and the rest of us) are waiting to learn whether they actually did or if the flake powder of the original was simply carried over into British production.
Nobody has produce an original loaded with cordite yet to my knowledge...

In this period advertisement, notice that Jeffery makes no mention of actually developing the 500 rimless cartridge, just building rifles for customers wanting a bolt action over a double.

https://revivaler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/The-500-Jeffery-1-theexplora.com_.jpg





In the Gun Digest of 1960, the British cartridges are listed with their load.

The cartridge 500 Jeffery is given with an 535gr bullet and a load of 95gr cordite. Is of course difficult to verify whether it was true or not.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
      #354166 - 08/06/21 01:40 AM

As everyone knows, the .500 Jeffery started out as the 12,7x70 Schüler. All known prewar “.500 Jeffery” cartridges were made in Germany by Dornheim („Gecado“). John “Pondoro” Taylor wrote: “… the Jeffery .500, the ammunition for which was only obtainable in Germany.” The metric chamber, cartridge and barrel dimensions as well as the max pressure were all published with the German 1940 proof law. The 1940 RWS handbook listed it with a 534 gr steel jacketed bullet and 108 gr Rottweil R5 smokeless powder for a mv of 2490 fps from a 27.5” barrel, pressure 3200 at (copper crusher). Most likely the cartridge was never loaded using British Cordite. The only prewar original Jeffery rifle I encountered has a Schüler chamber.
This was the state of affairs until Mr. Little mixed things up when Kynamco started production. Instead of working with the long established and CIP registered dimensions of the 12.7x70 Schüler, he decided to reinvent the wheel. Apparently he worked from an obscure drawing of a cartridge from the Kynoch archives (the company had never sold such a cartridge!), designed chambering dimensions around it and registered the whole shebang as the „proper dimensions“ for the .500 Jeffery. Now Kynoch had put a much shallower shoulder angle (for ease of manufacture?) on their cartridge drawing. (remember, British chambering/ cartridge dimensions were often quite sloppy in pre-war times.) The dire results are:
1) There are now two sets of different dimensions for the 12.7x70 aka .500 Schüler and the .500 Jeffery.
2) Kynamco`s cartridges will work ok in an original or Schüler chamber (with a lttle bit of fireforming the shoulder area), but original or Schüler dimension cartridges will not go into Mr. Little`s chambers.


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grandveneur
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
      #354168 - 08/06/21 02:40 AM

I also only found out about 10 years ago that there are two cartridges and that I now have a 12.7x70 Schüler and not a 500 Jeffery anymore. As a precaution, Mr. Ritterbusch engraved 1998 both cartridge names on the barrel. The size of the cartridge of the nineties differ supposedly slightly from the original from Schüler, it's the so-called Romey Hybrid where A-Square also participated.

Didn't bother me when hunting.


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Huvius
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Ithaca375]
      #354173 - 08/06/21 08:48 AM

Quote:

I'd be pretty interested in seeing it too! Since that's basically what I'm trying to do, some pictures would be awesome




I cannot find the listing but the seller’s name is Grouse Grove if I remember correctly.
You could contact him through one of his other listings and see if he still has the photos and if he’d share them.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Ithaca375
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Reged: 09/08/19
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Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Huvius]
      #354177 - 08/06/21 11:08 AM

Thanks, I'll try to contact him to see what it looked like!

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Ithaca375]
      #354199 - 09/06/21 05:39 AM

thank you kuduae for the complete overview about this story. had only an abstract idea of what happen.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: Ithaca375]
      #354200 - 09/06/21 07:10 AM

Quote:

Thanks, I'll try to contact him to see what it looked like!




Ithaca375
If you can get those photos mate of that Arisaka actioned 500 it would be a marvel if you did, but to post them in here would be fantastic - never heard of this being done before!


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lancaster
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354206 - 09/06/21 01:55 PM

yes, would not think it fits in this action original made for a small 6,5 mm round. but there were arisaka's rebuild for the 9,3x53R Finland so must having some potential.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: lancaster]
      #354219 - 10/06/21 03:29 AM

Quote:

I also only found out about 10 years ago that there are two cartridges and that I now have a 12.7x70 Schüler and not a 500 Jeffery anymore. As a precaution, Mr. Ritterbusch engraved 1998 both cartridge names on the barrel. The size of the cartridge of the nineties differ supposedly slightly from the original from Schüler, it's the so-called Romey Hybrid where A-Square also participated.

Didn't bother me when hunting.



Grandveneur, I forgot to mention the third variation of the 12.7x70 Schüler / .500 Jeffery theme. Before David Little of Kynamco messed up the situation for good by inventing the “New .500 Jeffery”, the Belgian-German gunsmith Harald Wolf, once publisher of Hatari Times, created his own experimental/wildcat/proprietary “.500 Jeffery Improved”. This version had the chamber and case dimensions of the original, but without Schüler’s rebated rim. Instead, his rim was the same diameter as the base. Here is a scan from Hatari Times No.5 :

Cartridges were loaded for Wolf by the former German custom loader Wolfgang Romey with Wolf’s proprietary HWM headstamp instead of Romey’s usual WR. The cases were made by Horneber. This conundrum of two different case/chamber shapes and two rim sizes led many gunmakers to keep clear of the 12.7x70 Schüler / .500 Jeffery / .500 Jeffery Imp mess.


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grandveneur
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
      #354220 - 10/06/21 03:40 AM

I know the famous cartridge in particular from the magazine Hatari Times.

I especially like the comment from Arthur B. Alphin in his book Any Shot You Want:

"The case for it are made in a guy's basement in Germany. All this has made a complete hash out of standardization."

Was in Belgium, not in Germany, doesn't matter.

Edited by grandveneur (10/06/21 03:55 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: grandveneur]
      #354222 - 10/06/21 05:04 AM

Quote:

"The case for it are made in a guy's basement in Germany. All this has made a complete hash out of standardization." Was in Belgium, not in Germany, doesn't matter.



Maybe Alphin was talking not about Harald Wolf, the designer, but about Horneber, who indeed made brass cases in the basement shop of his house in Fürth, Germany.


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grandveneur
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
      #354226 - 10/06/21 05:34 AM

Correct, it would be possible that Horneber is meant.

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JFE
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: kuduae]
      #354409 - 18/06/21 12:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I also only found out about 10 years ago that there are two cartridges and that I now have a 12.7x70 Schüler and not a 500 Jeffery anymore. As a precaution, Mr. Ritterbusch engraved 1998 both cartridge names on the barrel. The size of the cartridge of the nineties differ supposedly slightly from the original from Schüler, it's the so-called Romey Hybrid where A-Square also participated.

Didn't bother me when hunting.



Grandveneur, I forgot to mention the third variation of the 12.7x70 Schüler / .500 Jeffery theme. Before David Little of Kynamco messed up the situation for good by inventing the “New .500 Jeffery”, the Belgian-German gunsmith Harald Wolf, once publisher of Hatari Times, created his own experimental/wildcat/proprietary “.500 Jeffery Improved”. This version had the chamber and case dimensions of the original, but without Schüler’s rebated rim. Instead, his rim was the same diameter as the base. Here is a scan from Hatari Times No.5 :

Cartridges were loaded for Wolf by the former German custom loader Wolfgang Romey with Wolf’s proprietary HWM headstamp instead of Romey’s usual WR. The cases were made by Horneber. This conundrum of two different case/chamber shapes and two rim sizes led many gunmakers to keep clear of the 12.7x70 Schüler / .500 Jeffery / .500 Jeffery Imp mess.




The 500 AHR was also an improved 500J. AHR increased the rim width and changed the shoulder angle but they also increased the neck length. Clearly with the longer neck it was never designed to work in a 500J chamber, but looking at the drawing it looks like it might have been designed for 500J ammo to headspace in the 500 AHR chamber, which would be an advantage if you lost your ammo in transit.


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casper50
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Re: 500 Jeffery [Re: JFE]
      #354410 - 18/06/21 04:04 PM

I just received my 570 grain Woodleigh Weldcore .510 grain bullets from Huntingtons. Got 3 boxes of 25.

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