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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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mckinney
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Posts: 1225
Loc: usa
Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase
      #354179 - 08/06/21 01:13 PM

I picked up a very rough (but high number) 1903 Springfield on GB the other day. I don’t yet have it in hand but I believe it may (may) be an early Seymour Griffin creation from about 1920 before Griffin and Howe was formed. I base this on the stock – especially the shape of the cheekpiece and the indentation and ‘peak’ forward of it. That, and the fact that it’s a pretty nicely shaped full stock rifle.

Here are a couple of G&H Springfields stocked by Seymour Griffin in the mid to late 1920’s.

https://imgbox.com/8s2o9W7J
https://imgbox.com/Up5Gwmgp

A G&H Kurz Mauser from the same period (stock details partly obscured).

https://imgbox.com/ArJ0WTUP

But, there are echoes of this style elsewhere.

In the same period - Zi-Di rifles from the 1930s.

https://imgbox.com/hXRFy6Rc
https://imgbox.com/3u7DJoUf

And even in a later period – an early Sako Riihimaki

https://imgbox.com/SxO0Daq0

So it may be Griffin’s style, which others borrowed. It may be something Griffin borrowed from others, or something borrowed from Europe somewhat earlier. Or maybe it's just a sequence of notes in a song that can be borrowed without violating the copyright. I think I might vote for the latter.

Anyway, here’s the GB rifle:

https://imgbox.com/fOMlx7Rk
https://imgbox.com/1llAh29v

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93x64mm
.416 member


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Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354188 - 08/06/21 09:19 PM

Never know mckinney - a good scrub & a bit of TLC, should work wonders!

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LRF
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Reged: 28/03/11
Posts: 353
Loc: minnesota ,usa
Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354189 - 08/06/21 09:21 PM

Do you have a full length picture of the left side that you could post?

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: LRF]
      #354191 - 09/06/21 12:41 AM

A few more images:

https://imgbox.com/y43OoV8E
https://imgbox.com/wOOvDnh8
https://imgbox.com/y1grZZ52
https://imgbox.com/smQ5WXec

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DarylS
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Posts: 27006
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354195 - 09/06/21 03:04 AM

Good find.
You should be able to restore that one nicely.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
Loc: usa
Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: DarylS]
      #354276 - 12/06/21 08:54 AM

Well, the rifle arrived today in better condition than I expected.

The metal looks to be rust blued and the bore is bright with strong rifling. The Lyman 48S sight is in good shape. The front sight is loose and will need attention. The action is tight and smooth.

I haven’t yet taken the rifle out of the stock. The only marking on the action and barrel other than the Springfield marking on the receiver is a barrel date of March 1920 just above the muzzle. I think this marking indicates either an NRA sporter or a ‘star gauge’ barrel. (Does anyone know?)

I am continuing to peddle the line that the rifle was stocked by Seymour Griffin. The wood to metal fit looks to me to be tight and well done. LOP is about 14.5".

The mars in the stock finish are due to heat exposure but not fire. The finish has melted and flaked in spots. It looks like some of the original filler has also melted, exposing pores in the wood. The wood itself is not damaged, gouged or chipped. I’m not sure whether the original finish was varnish or linseed oil/shellac etc, but I'd like to repair it without refinishing the whole stock. Thinking about trying to gently push the finish off with a hot (dull) putty knife in the places where it is crinkled and then applying linseed oil and maybe stain.

Would love to get any thoughts on how to do the refinish and anything else.

Some photos:

https://imgbox.com/GQTIYQb8
https://imgbox.com/d2cCDRRP
https://imgbox.com/8vtLwXfx
https://imgbox.com/h0C6RlT4
https://imgbox.com/wG3icc65
https://imgbox.com/0o9L8ufY
https://imgbox.com/hHTKo52c
https://imgbox.com/z0pWY7hM
https://imgbox.com/TZhoyzbw
https://imgbox.com/PjHZt18K

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DarylS
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Posts: 27006
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354277 - 12/06/21 09:02 AM

As far as I know, all star-gauged 1903 Springfield barrels were stamped on the muzzle.




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27006
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: DarylS]
      #354278 - 12/06/21 09:14 AM

Further, about dates on the barrel.
Got this from another site.
The date on the barrel it seems, is simply the date the barrel was made.

"Barrel date is 4 23 and is on top of the barrel, in proper location."



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1225
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: DarylS]
      #354280 - 12/06/21 09:46 AM

I think you're correct.

Apparently the star gauge barrels were also marked with a date either on top of or under the barrel. I'll check this one when I take it out of the stock. My rifle does not have a star mark on the end of the muzzle.

Were all NRA sporters with star gauge barrels?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27006
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354286 - 12/06/21 11:40 AM

SRY - don't know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jgrabow
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: DarylS]
      #354297 - 13/06/21 12:56 AM

This serial number is pre 'National Match and 'NRA Sporter'.

--------------------
Jim

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: jgrabow]
      #354298 - 13/06/21 01:17 AM

Thanks Jim.

Is there any way of telling where or to whom the action was delivered? I think I remember Michael Petrov mentioning something about this but I can’t find anything on it now. I need to improve my 1903 library.

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prairie_ghost
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354303 - 13/06/21 07:33 AM

I'll play devil's advocate, things to ponder. Wood is very open pored, possibly American walnut. Not likely his wood of choice. Hard to see the grain direction through the grip but less than ideal would be another factor. Checkering is crude and unevenly spaced. Military butt plate, mlitary cross bolts. What does the internal inletting look like- well fit to all the metal or just the edges.
I'm no expert, never even held one in my hands but reading Micheal's books suggests Seymour Griffin only created 1 quality of rifle, best. That said with a little work and elbow grease it could be a very nice little sporter.

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: prairie_ghost]
      #354309 - 13/06/21 12:25 PM

Hi prairie ghost

Yes, lots to ponder.

I've started cleaning the rifle and the wood looks to me like American walnut of about the grade you might see on a Winchester 54 or an NRA sporter. It is fairly straight grained with good color but not a lot of figure. However, Griffin did build stocks with ordinary American walnut during his 'Bretton Hall' period from about 1910-23 before the founding of G&H. (He also built stocks of Circassian walnut during that period and was known for his supply of good wood.) G&H too built rifles with ordinary wood, especially during the Depression years. They built Springfields with cross bolts as well.

It's hard to tell much about the checkering because the stock has way too much finish on it and it has blistered or melted down into the checkering. It’s so dark that it looks almost like black paint. The checkering pattern though is identical to the photo of Griffin's 'early' style on page 96 of Petrov's book (vol 2) except that it is not as fine lined - possibly owing to the American walnut v Circassian. The checkering on the pistol grip extends almost to the inletting – another Griffin feature mentioned by Petrov.

The thing that I find most convincing though is the shape of the stock. I have a few of the early G&H rifles and Petrov advised me they were stocked by Griffin. The buttstocks of those rifles are identical to this one and you can see the same shape on many G&H rifles from that period on everything from magnum Mausers to Winchester 52s. There is one for sale now on Gunbroker, a Mauser in .375 H&H (serial no 20).

The things I find less convincing are – why would he build a blunderbuss like this thing? I don’t know of any other full stocked rifles that he built. I don’t think it could have started with an Armory stock, so why the cross bolts. Why is the barrel flat ahead of the receiver polished bright and lacking any sight? The barrel is 23.5” and the LOP 14.5” so it’s a big stick to wave around and the front sight (if original) is great for hanging on brush. Is it even a sporting rifle?

Probably never going to have an answer to these questions.

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354310 - 13/06/21 12:38 PM

BTW, I don't want to give the impression I think S. Griffin was the holy grail of stockmaking. I like his stuff but R.G. Owen, John Dubiel, Barney Worthen, James V Howe, the Brits and others are also very good.

The pre-G&H Griffins are not especially rare. Petrov was convinced that he made a lot of stocks and even mentioned that he had encountered about 20 of them in a year.

It's just fun to try to pick these things off online once in a while:)

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prairie_ghost
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354312 - 13/06/21 03:02 PM

Hopefully you are right. It is a nice looking stock, well proportioned and in the right style. I looked at it but have enough to do.

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jgrabow
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: jgrabow]
      #354356 - 15/06/21 08:11 PM

Quote:

This serial number is pre 'National Match and 'NRA Sporter'.



Let me add to this. Per 'The Springfield 1903 Rifles' by Brophy,

Shooting championships of national stature supported by both civilian and military funds and shooters began in 1873 at the National Rifle Association ranges at Creedmore, long Island, New York. It moved to New Jersey Militia range at Seagirt, New Jersey in 1889. In 1907 it moved to Camp Perry, Ohio.

In 1908 the new Model 1903 became the official rifle to be used in the matches. In 1910, the star gauge card issued with some rifles containing bore dimensions was used in the selection of rifles to be tested for use in the matches. The selected rifles were then shot for accuracy from a bench rest. This process continued until 1921. In 1921, a new specially fitted and selected rifle was assembled at Springfield. It was identified as: Rifle, U.S., caliber .30, M1903, National Match. These National Match rifles were produced from 1921 through 1940 and they have a star stamped at 6 o'clock on the muzzle. Your rifle was manufactured mid 1920.

I started a thread on another forum requesting any info about your rifle from people that know more about these rifles than I do.

BINGO! Per John Beard, 'the rifle is indeed a 1920 National Match rifle as indicated by the configuration and serial number'.

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/showthread.php?75663-SRS-Info

--------------------
Jim

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: jgrabow]
      #354363 - 16/06/21 12:29 AM

Holy Cow Jim, that is exciting news. Thank you for following up on this for me, much appreciated.

Maybe this should change my plans for the rifle. My original thought was to try and very gently scrape away the spoiled finish without touching the wood and just return the rifle to its original used appearance, handling marks and all - no sanding, no finish remover. I've done some of that but only on the flat surfaces. Have been pondering the correct tools for the non flat surfaces but haven't yet found anything. The checkering is a further issue.

The front sight is another question mark.

What do you think?

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354364 - 16/06/21 12:37 AM

some photos

https://imgbox.com/kNTqnJgO
https://imgbox.com/s8ih7xg7

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354688 - 28/06/21 12:40 AM

Just a brief update on the Springfield...

I subscribed to the U.S. Martial Arms Collector in order to gain access to the Springfield Research Service (SRS). Unfortunately this rifle is not in their database (as noted in the thread posted earlier by Jim), which means there is no record of where it was delivered. My Seymour Griffin 'attribution' will therefore remain just that unless an old letter or magazine piece turns up or SRS eventually finds something on the serial number. I looked through issues of Arms and the Man for the period 1919-21 and found much mention of Seymour Griffin but nothing at all about any work on Springfield match rifles.

As to cleaning up the rifle, I've learned that carefully removing the old damaged finish is not going to give a good result. So - I'll probably clean with turpentine and fine grit sandpaper and try to do a proper refinish along the lines of James V Howe's Modern Gunsmithing (1934). Of course then the rifle will be 'non-professionally refinished' rather than 'cleaned' but I don't think this is important given the rifle. If anyone has strong view to the contrary, please speak up.

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93x64mm
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: mckinney]
      #354692 - 28/06/21 07:25 AM

Mckinney
I believe you are doing the best you can to get this old target rifle at least in a presentable state.
It certainly had a very close call to being burnt to a crisp & thanks to you it now has a home once more rather than be a rusted tomato stake in someone's back yard!
You've certainly done your research, again gone as far as you can go & like a lot of life's mysteries, that last door is still bloody locked!
When everything is done & said, it is your rifle, your pride & joy so let no-one take that from you. So take it out when you've finished all the hard work, load her up with some good match grade ammo & see what she'll really do.
I reckon she might surprise you!

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mckinney
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Re: Seymour Griffin stocks and a rough Gunbroker purchase [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354701 - 29/06/21 11:56 AM

Thanks for that 9.3

I’m in total agreement with your comments.

I’ll be going slowly on the work due to other time commitments but hope to have something in a few weeks.

I’d like to fit an appropriate National Match ladder sight in addition to the current Lyman 48S. The rifles were equipped with both sights from what I can tell. There are 2 variations of the ladder sight. The correct one for the rifle is flat across the top. It lacks the “V” slot cut into the top bar on the other version.

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