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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39891
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Rough age of a Martini-Cadet?
#353938 - 01/06/21 05:45 AM

Third from top

Left rifle.

This one h-brrelled to .222 Rimmed.

As a guess what would be its approximate date of manufacture?

I also have a Martini-Cadet in .297/250 which was a Victorian Police training rifle.

As a guess when would that have been made?

Thanks for any help.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
Loc: Georgia, USA

Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: NitroX]
#353940 - 01/06/21 06:03 AM

It looks like the 297/250 was developed by H&H around 1880 or slightly earlier. I expect that for training purposes, the .207/250 was superseded by the .310 cadet which was developed by Greener around 1900. Assuming that other rifle manufacturers started using this cartridge sometime after H&H released it, the rifle could have been built as early as 1885 +/-. Likely, as a training cartridge, it would not have been built much after the .310 was released so say not later than 1905 +/-. Of course, those are merely WAGs, based upon limited facts.

--------------------
RB

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: 85lc]
#353944 - 01/06/21 12:06 PM

I'll look it up when I get home. The Cadet was the BSA Model 4A in .310. I think they came out about 1903 or so--like I said I'll look it up.

The 297/230 probably is a Francotte or possibly a Westley Richards. They are not a Cadet. Yes they were rifles' for Cadets, but it is not a Cadet The BSA Model 4A is the Cadet.

The 297/30 Morris guns are pre 1898. There is a bit of vagueness around the 297/230 -297/250. The literatures is contradictory about the cartridges.

I'll look tomorrow.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: DoubleD]
#353946 - 01/06/21 04:50 PM

Thanks. I don't think i have photos of the .297/25 or 230. Is those the same calibre/cartridge? The markings on my rifle are difficult to read.

I am dating these rifles for my Police Self Audit of Registration. While date of manufacture has been made an optional requirement, if I date older rifles where ammunition is no longer readily available, I may have the option if needed of making rifles or guns an antique. Off the registration requirement entirely. However I do prefer to be able to shoot these rifles, and that is illegal for an antique.

Plus also nice to know the ages and dates. And correct descriptions. I should take soem photos for a NE thread one of these days. Perhaps will have to, for the self audit anyway. If not already listed on the National Firearms Information Database.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4204
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: NitroX]
#353948 - 01/06/21 09:38 PM

Quote:

Thanks. I don't think i have photos of the .297/25 or 230. Is those the same calibre/cartridge? The markings on my rifle are difficult to read.

I am dating these rifles for my Police Self Audit of Registration. While date of manufacture has been made an optional requirement, if I date older rifles where ammunition is no longer readily available, I may have the option if needed of making rifles or guns an antique. Off the registration requirement entirely. However I do prefer to be able to shoot these rifles, and that is illegal for an antique.

Plus also nice to know the ages and dates. And correct descriptions. I should take soem photos for a NE thread one of these days. Perhaps will have to, for the self audit anyway. If not already listed on the National Firearms Information Database.

John
here in QLD is that if a cartridge doesn't have commercial loaded rounds for it then is considered an "antique"

https://www.police.qld.gov.au/weapon-licensing/antique-weapons

You do not require a weapons licence or a permit to acquire to take possession of an antique firearm. However, you should ensure that the firearm you intend to acquire fits the definition of an antique.

An antique firearm is defined under the Weapons Act 1990 as a firearm manufactured before 1 January 1901 that is either:

a muzzle loading firearm;
a cap and ball firearm; or
a firearm in which an authorised officer decides that ammunition is not commercially available.

https://www.police.qld.gov.au/weapon-licensing/ammunition-availability

I hope that SA will have something similar to this
NSW list
https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...y_Available.pdf

Fingers crossed for you mate, those little Martinis are beautiful pieces!

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85lc
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Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: 93x64mm]
#353958 - 02/06/21 10:21 AM

The 297/25 or 230 are two different cartridges. The 297/25 bullet uses a 25 cal bullet and the 297/230 uses a 0.225 bullet.
Some 297/250 is actaully a blown out 297/230. I have seen several advertised that were rechambered to 25/20 SS or WCF.
Both cartridges can be made from 22 hornet.

--------------------
RB

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HistoricBore
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Reged: 28/09/11
Posts: 226
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: 85lc]
#353965 - 02/06/21 11:42 PM

Hi Nitrox

A good question. Almost all of the .310 Martini Cadet rifles were built for export to Australia. Most were made by BSA and had a sophisticated rear sight. These were all stamped on the woodwork and were made in Birmingham in 1911. They then seemed to have arrived in Australia in 1912, and were divided up between the various States, which then stamped the actions and sometimes the woodwork of the butt on the right hand side with, say, 'QUEENSLAND 03.12'

Yours may have been refinished, but it is worth having a good look at the wood.

When our pistols were banned here in 1996 hundreds were brought back to the United Kingdom (but not Northern Ireland which still has pistols...) and are now very popular. I ran an event for Rook rifles for the HBSA here at Bisley for the last 20 years, and several of the competitors used them to good advantage. Once you get a reload sorted out they are vey accurate and great fun.

Prior to that I understand many were sold to the USA and were often rechambered to other calibres, such as .32-20 (which does not work that well), .32-40, .22 Hornet, .357 Magnum, etc. But our American cousins will be able to fill you in on that.

So the answer is 1911, probably...

HB

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85lc
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Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: HistoricBore]
#353973 - 03/06/21 06:13 AM

Back in the late 1950s & 1960s, a number of cadets were imported and, as HistoricBore said, some were rechambered to 32/20 which was a poor cartridge selection because the 32/20 bullet was undersized.

A few were rechambered to 32 Special but the bullet (in factory ammo) was too heavy for the slow twist used in 310 cadets. However, when handloaded with fairly light loads and with bullets up to 140 grains, they shot fairly well.

I had not seen or read of any 32/40 conversions but that would make sense to me.

A number were rebored to 357 and, from friends that have had one, they are fun to shoot and make nice stalking rifles.

The cadet action was used by many as a basis of small varmint rifles. I had a 22 SuperJet built on a cadet action with a fairly heavy 22" custom barrel. It was a wonderful gun.

--------------------
RB

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NitroX
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Rough age of a Martini-Cadet? [Re: 85lc]
#353983 - 03/06/21 02:46 PM

Thanks for all the replies. Have been reading them all as they come in.

When I get to pull the rifles out of the safe, I will have a good look at them again. Maybe some photos. I know the .297/250 or 230, the markings on the barrel are extremely hard to read. I may try my new technique of taking photos and examining the photos and often the markings can be read better.

Gentlemen, keep your eyes out for me. I need a scope mount for the .222 Rimmed in the photos. A .222 with open sights just doesn't cut it for headshooting bunnies.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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