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Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless

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I did this for someone a couple of weeks ago







Not a break open gun, and not a cartridge that I'm longing for as a hunting gun for myself, but since you mentioned hyphenated cartridges I figured I'd put that up for kicks...

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Fantasy time, at leeast for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.

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Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless

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I did this for someone a couple of weeks ago







Not a break open gun, and not a cartridge that I'm longing for as a hunting gun for myself, but since you mentioned hyphenated cartridges I figured I'd put that up for kicks...

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will the 50-110 generate more energy than the 500 S&W in a handgun?

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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There's more case capacity in the 50-110 and that's a heat treated cylinder. The limit will be the brass, and it's Starline brass so really the limit will likely be the shooter.

Frankly, the S&W can be loaded to perform beyond the comfort level of many/most shooters. I don't know how far the owner of that revolver will go with his load development, but there's a great deal of potential there for him to explore.

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Holy crap Tinker!
You'd need to be built like ol' Arnie to hang onto this cannon going flat out with BP!
Imagine the muzzle flash.........it'd be awesome to say the least
Well over my comfort level for sure!

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Where is there a reference to the 600 Manchester cartridge that you mention here?

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Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless

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I did this for someone a couple of weeks ago







Not a break open gun, and not a cartridge that I'm longing for as a hunting gun for myself, but since you mentioned hyphenated cartridges I figured I'd put that up for kicks...

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Yes in reality and maybe in history a large calibre revolver would probably be used a a howdah self defence handgun against tiger attack. There is a large calibre Webley, .577?, thread on the NE forums.

A .455 Webley would probably work well enough as well.

Four to seven rounds in the cyclinder allow quick follow up additional shots.

A modern .357 revolver would work pretty well as well.

Something like this hand cannon, no doubt would work.

The side by side howdah pistil in large calibre originated as a muzzle loading bp pistol. Tqwo qucik shots at very close range. Perhaps when the muzzle loading long arms had been expended already on the hunt or the charge?

Then a short period when small numbers of cartridge case howdah pistols were made. Also loading blakc powder. No doubt the cost went up as well. Before the era of larger reliable handguns/revolvers with similar power. Perhaps the Webley became a popular handgun to carry on an elephants back?

But also the era of non muzzle loaders, breech loading drs and shotguns, which also could be reloaded quickly compared to a muzzle loader. So perhaps less need for a handgun.

I will put a probability out there, the howdah handgun originated not just for a "tiger on the elephants back" but also do to the slow reloading spped of a muzzle loading rifle or shotgun on the swaying rocking back of an elephant. A single or double barreled ML handgun used a a weapon of last defence. We know shorter barreled rifles and shotguns existed for use in or on a howdah. A handgun is of course very short and can be swumg around and pointed quickly, where a long arm has to manouvre around the bodies on the howdah saddle.

So my hypothesis on the howdah:

1. Became a weapon of last defence on a howdah saddle due to :
1a. Long arms being muzzle loaders and once shot, took too long to reload, a handgun provided quick emergemcy shots;

1b. A howdah pistol being short was manouverable in the cramoed howdah saddle full 360 degrees, around the other riders.

2. With the creation of breech loading long arms, there was less need for a howdah pistol, but:

2a. We see these lovely breech loading vrass case howdah pistols in limited numbers;

2b. A muzzle loading howdah pistol would still have been useful and effective in the age of breech loading wlong arms. It is a weapon of short length considerable power or last resort. Two powerful shots probably wiill resolve the threat or not at all.

3. With the advent of large and reliable powerful revolvers, the side by side and single shot howdah handgun became redundant.

But back to the topic. They are cool. And I want one. And we are fantasising about building a modern side by side version, and what it could be chambered for.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Fantasy time, at leeast for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.

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because the shotgun project is called a cheap and bad idea before I have seen once pics of a howdah pistol exactly in this style with smooth barrels shooting 20 ga slugs with brass cases.
With the right donor shotgun its possible to change anything in the way it have to be.

cut and welding is the great secret.I think this is the best way to build such a pistol if a cut off shotgun is legal to fire in your area.

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Yes a shotgun with hammers could well be a sensible choice as the base for such a howdah handgun.

Mick/264 and Marrakai both owned a Greener Empire Shotgun in 12 gauge which was converted to a .577 :ight NE double rifle.

Such a shotgun could be modified also into a howdah handgun. Perhaps with 12 bore case and rifled barrels. Or a shortened .577 LNE case to a handgun cartridge length and a lighter bullet or round bullet.

Ideally a shotgun with hammers could be used.

Why? Because the hammers can be kpet down, the howdah relatively safe until the hammers are cocked. Much safer than a safety. A modern decocker safety would also be fairly safe on a loaded side by side handgun, "hanging around" ... BUT old fashioned hammers are just so much cooler.

I have hypothesised that a Baikal side by side .45/70 cut shorterd and a pistol grip fashioned from the pistol grip butt stock. would make a "spartan" howdah pistol. Looking at mine, it does appear chunky and I wonder what weight it would end up as. Very muzzle heavy I think.

A Pedersoli .45/70 S/S cut down with hammers would maybe be better. Higher cost!

Simialr case capacity. Disappointly smaller bore, a .50 to 480 gr projectile, however it would work.

Would at the minimum be a fun gun for am ACTION howdah shoot. Make a raised platform, rocking and swaying somewhat, and popup tiger or leopard targets at close range. One or two shots before it pops down again after a few seconds. Safety considerations might be difficult to ensure.

All these discussions assume any such project is legal where it would be made and owned. Anothe rproblematic consideration in the modern world.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Oh WOW Im onboard for this one! I would say 6-8 inch barrels, maybe even a second set OR a duplicate gun with longer (say 14 inches) and a detachable shoulder stock , packaged as a set.

Yes I like the hammer idea too; but with them tilted just a bit into the center so that they can be cocked at the same time with one hand-Taylors sells a SxS Coach Gun like that. Id want a side lever over a top lever; but Im flexible on that one. Also a true pistol grip (like the one pictured).

Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless

Youll have to school me on why it has to have rifled barrels. I recall some talk awhile back about I seem to a cartridge based on the brass 20ga shells shortened to 2 inches called 600 Manchester. One version had round ball exposed but held in place with 5 or 6 crimps. The other had a conical loaded like a bullet. I dont recall any load data other than it was a BP load. Seems to me that would have the punch and look

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Of course a smooth bore howdah pistol or shotgun shooting slugs or ball I think might do as well.

No one seems to be able to answer just how accurate or well regulated these rifled howdah pistols were?

So it is possible a smooth bore 12 bore, 16 bore or 20 bore, with a slug or ball would do as well?

I reckon hitting a steel plate, 12 inches wide at 10 yards would be pretty good. A tiger at almost or actual touching distance would be even easy to shoot without even aiming, just pointing, if the elephant was not shaking and thrashing around, the howdah rcoking enough to almost break its leather staps, the tiger moving like a wound up spring of deaht, and ones bowels emptying into ones spotless pure white gentleman's trousers!

A Mad Max sawn off shotgun howdah pistol is a very cheap and real answer for a fun Howdah Action Target shoot. A plus is it also could shoot heavy shot! Again legality is a bit of an issue.
These howdah pistols I would think were both rifled and smoothbore. I think a lot of variation might have existed.

I do like the fantasy of a rifle howdah pistol, which does regulate to some extent. And could be used for practical hunting.

A longer barrel set and a clip on rifle stock, would make it very versatile.

I can hear the police raid banging on my front door right now.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Reopening.

I wonder if any gunmaker has made a modern Howdah pistol?

If one could be made, what cartridge? As previously asked. It must be rimmed. And sound at least classic.

I wonder how well it could've regulated?

Rimmed.

Hammers, preferably traditional. But modern German decocking safeties could work.

Break open side by side. Side lever or under lever.

Would be great with a slide on butt stock for actual hunting.

Wide V sight. But maybe unobtrusive and base fitting for a modern handgun dot optic sight. But only if invisible when off.

Cased of course.

Didn't win lotto last night but it jackpotted. So can get a cased pair now.

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Fantasy time, at least for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.

Yes it is a bit dated but so is hunting from the back of an elephant.

I do think hammers are an absolute requirement. Otherwise a modern form of decocker/cocker. Comment?

I do like the .577 calibre. But what cartridge would you have it made in? The orignal .577 Snider bp? Or what modern cartridge would do similiar in smokeless?

Maybe a custom .577 NE considerably shorted? Any ideas?

A .500 and .450 range might also be fine, even to a .375?

For example I have already mentioned a .45/70 might make a dandy modern howdah cartridge choice. Similar case capacity to a .577 Snider.

Rimmed is pretty much essential.

Any cartridge choice must have reasonable recoil. A full NE powered handgun is just ridiculous. So include estimates of velocity and recoil in such a weight handgun and barrel lenght.

Please comment.

Which maker and why?

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Here in the US we have a 1/2 inch limit; but there are exceptions for "sporting purposes" whatever the hell that is... I suppose more to the point, since this is a fantasy after winning the lottery, then the modest fee of a $200 is hardly an issue to go over 50 Caliber for a proper (looking) Howdah cartridge.

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$200 is never an issue in my opinion.

Yes hammers better than a decocker.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Does it really "need" to be rifled?

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Does it really "need" to be rifled?

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That depends on the range. Out to 10 yards, I'd say NO.
20 yards, definitely.
The divergence of the balls will grow exponentially with added range.
If wanting to shoot slugs - fast twist necessary.

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Rifling or smooth bore?
Sights or non sighted?

Two scenarios.
1. A modern Howdah designed to use in defence against a tiger on top of an elephant. The original purpose.
1a. Same but home self defence in a house against an intruder.
2. A modern Howdah to shoot targets in a sporting sense of competition.

A smooth bore with or without sights might do for the first one. I suggest a small front sight, or shotgun bead is the minimum.

Rifled and sights, at least a small front sight is probably better, for the second. Smooth bore might work.

The only reasons in my mind for going smooth bore would cost, using existing donor shotguns, and perhaps also shooting shot.

Otherwise if shooting ball, conicals, whatever, suitable rifling would be preferred.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Hammers, under lever ( because it looks better to me and it wouldn't jam into the web of your hand or knuckle like a top or side lever will when you fire it), low shallow v rear sight and large bead front sight. Regulated to 21 feet. 12 or 20 bore shooting some form of conical slug. A lanyard ring. It could be smooth bore or rifled.

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Good points. Vintage Howdahs always have under or side levers.

The rest of the points are spot on as well.

Add 16-bore to the list.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Sooooo, reopening an old thread because I cant get the image out of my head. By now you guys have heard of the Pedersoli 45Colt/410 Howdah's and their B/P versions. The 45/410' work legally because the "beat" the 1/2 inch sporting role limit. I do have to give Pedersoli credit for all the options they offer, (Hammers, non hammer, double and single trigger, even one in nickel and rubber covered wood). They also make B/P versions in 20ga and 50 caliber. The 45/410 guns run $1500-2000 and the B/P versions about $1000

Another "option" is the American Gun Company Diablo. Its a 12ga SxS B/P but it breaks open (like a cartridge gun) to load 209 primers. It has a single trigger and a single hammer that you must pivot left/right for barrel selection. They offer 6" 8" and 11" versions. The 6 inch gun is nice for crossdraw carry, but the 8" feels most "Howdah" to me. The AGC guns run about $700. They even make a grip that allows use of an AR type stock, if you want a very modern option.

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Pity the Diablos look so aweful.

The Pedersoli cartridge side by side aren't Howdahs. Marketing waffle abot some make believe 1930s origins. The pistol grips are simply gross and ugly. If I acquired one idtry to restock it was reasonably as possible. Lacks hammers.

For the prices they could do better.

The muzzle loading pedersolis seem closer to the proper design.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The Pedersoli "Alaskan" (nickel with black rubber covered wood) at least has a decent shaped grip. They do make a hammer version; but like the others the grip is based on the Ithaca Auto Burglar. I suspect they were trying to entice both the howdah and auto burglar customers. I actually like them as a modern-esque take on the howdah; after all who else is making one.

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The muzzleloader versions are, I think, truer to the original concept of the howdah. I have two. one is the early version with the swiveling ramrod. The other started as a kit and I shortened the barrels to 8 inches. Its easier to carry I had a local guy make me a crossdraw holster and its been worn several times in the shop. The full size can also be used with a stock.

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I seem to recall seeing an original supershort "Howdah Rifle". I cant recall if the stock on the original was fixed of removal.

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I posted some photos of a howdah pistol with a removable butt stock recently.

Also one of our members has a Howdah rifle, a short barrelled .375 rifle. The same rifle was featured on an NE thread several years before as well.

264/Micks and previously Marrakais. Fat Lady, a Greener shotgun conversion to .577 LNE has short barrels and could be called a "Howdah Double Rifle" very easily. 264 abd Marrakai, doing Top End Elephants Shikars!

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Years ago I was involved in 18th century living history. Once a year we had live fire competitions. The handgun class was separated into rifled and smoothbore. Historically guns of that period were both, You guys would know better than me; but I suspect Howdahs were both smooth and rifled. Likewise I suspect some had sights and some didnt. My shortened version does NOT have sights, as I imagine a hastily made or cost effective period gun would have been. The full productions guns all have sights.

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As for self defense from a charging animal Tiger, Wild Boar, or rabid dog; I dont see the need for a sight on a muzzle against flesh shot out to self defense at room distance against a two legged animal. Beyond room distance, I would suggest the howdah is not the best choice, and relying on sights to improve that is a mistake.

The Diablo is ugly by traditional howdah standards. Im pretty sure there was never any intent to duplicate a howdah. That being said; if original howdahs were made from shortened rifles and shotguns, then the Diablo follows that tradition.

I have long considered having a custom built howdah made in the traditional pattern; but lacking a winning lottery ticket or a booked tiger hunt; that contract is on hold

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When I win lotto I have the same eccentric plan. A modern British made Howdah pistol. What cartridge? Would they do it? It must regulate? A shoulder stock as well to make it more versatile. Tiger hunting is rarer than Howdahs nowadays. Would the bureaucrat nazis allow it to be made or owned? Need that one in several hundred million chance lotto win to find out.

In the meantime I hope to come across a vintage example, rifled or smooth bore at a price I can afford.

A Pedersoli ML and/or .45 LC restocked maybe as well. As I wondered want to over use a vintage example on shooting silly paper.

I think they would be simply great fun.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The third pistol is a breech cartridge loading example with hammers.

No such example is listed anywhere on the Pedersoli website. Only the muzzle loaders have hammers.

Anyone know more about these cartridge howdahs with hammers? Were they shotgun (.410) or rifled (.45 LC)?

This example:

https://www.athlonoutdoors.com/article/pedersoli-howdah/

Pedersoli Howdah Specs

Caliber: .45 Colt/.410
Barrels: 10.25 inches
Overall Length: 17 inches
Weight: 4.5 pounds (empty)
Sights: Brass bead front, folding leaf rear
Stock: Walnut
Action: Sidelock, exposed hammers
Finish: Browned barrels, color-case hardened steel furniture
Capacity: 2
MSRP: $2,035

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (13/03/24 07:56 PM)

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Pedersoli’s Howdah 45/410 is a double triggered, breech loading, extractor pistol reproduction of the famous Auto & Burglar pistol produced by Ithaca in the 1920’s. Pedersoli’s model introduces completely different characteristics making it legal for importation and purchase in the US. The main difference is that Pedersoli’s Howdah 45/410 is chambered in 45 Colt, having 10.25 inch, 6-groove rifled barrels with a 1:48 right hand twist and equipped with lengthened chambers to support use of 3 inch .410 shotshells. The pistol is furnished with a ramp front sight and folding rear leaf sight. The rear grip fits snugly in the hand allowing easily controlled use.The Vintage Variant of the Howdah 45/410 is the pinnacle of the Howdah platform. Featuring a true sidelock action with exposed hammers, the round bodied case colored receiver features double triggers. This model has a unique barrel design that begins round and transitions to octagonal at the muzzle.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The "Vintage" 45/410 is, "I suppose", the closest currently available option. Ive often wondered if the stock could be re-shaped into something more period Howdah correct??? Im just not sure Im ready to spend $1500-2000 USD on a project, hoping it could be "fixed".

The next question, is 45COLT an acceptable cartridge? How'bout something made from a brass 410 case?

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To buy a vintage .577 Snider or variant Howdah pistol, $5000 to $30000, $2000 is not bad.

The .45 Long Colt cartridge is inadequate. Might as well use a revolver. But if shooting targets as part of a fun howdah competition, it is better than nothing.

Maybe .410 brass cases loaded with a .45 projectile might be possible and more gutsy? Safe? No idea.

Fixed is only restocking to remove that ugly pistol grip stock. T the same time allow a shoulder stock to be used as well.

This "vintage" model does have external hammers though. IMO pretty much a requirement on a real Howdah pistol.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (16/03/24 02:07 PM)

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I think one of those percussion model muzzle loaders in .58 will be on the purchase list as well.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Look at the locks on this real vintage Howdah pistol. How the action curves downwards allowing the proper pistol grip with decent trigger pull length.

Compare it to the Pedersolis where the triggers and guard are more on a horizontal plane with another horizontal plane behind the guard till the grip.

This real vintage Howdah pistol, already had the trigger guard in the curve of the grip.

It would be good to handle both at the same time and see how they feel differently.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (17/03/24 06:15 PM)

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Although anything over the 50/500 caliber is regulated as "destructive device" for handguns here in the USA, if money wasn't a problem I'd go forward with a 20bore or 16bore using 70 or more grains Black or a nitro energy equivalent.
Excessive velocity will only give the hunter greater range. That's not needed for this kind of gun.

There are some handsome hammerless designs - but I'd want small curved back action or island locks with hammers.

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A 16-bore hammer side by side shotgun could provide a cheap donor source for a smoothbore Howdah pistol.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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A 16-bore hammer side by side shotgun could provide a cheap donor source for a smoothbore Howdah pistol

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Finally we have arrived at my own personal concept of a modern howdah pistol build, so its time to add my two cents worth. Except mine would definitely need rifling!

Several years ago I went down this rabbit-hole with a view to making a version of the SxS 16-bore hammergun that could be used in our Big Game Rifle competition for the Howdah Pistol event.
A couple of important pre-requisites were NO TOP-LEVER, and percussion-style fences. The problem with using a vintage 12-bore hammer-gun as a donor is that back-action locks cannot be contoured down into the pistol grip, as mentioned above: they are all too straight.
Unfortunately as the SxS shotgun evolved, the top-lever was universally adopted BEFORE the back-action lock was replaced by the bar-action lock, so finding a donor hammer-gun that had bar-action locks with either a Jones underlever or a side-lever was like looking for rocking-horse sh!t!

Anyway, long story short, I finally found one and made the acquisition. According to my gunsmith, I can do everything required except shortening the barrels. That requires changing the firearm class from A (shotgun) to H (handgun) in the NT, and this can only be done legally by a licenced armourer or gunsmith. Difficulties are predicted if I want it to remain an antique (pre-1900 manufactured action) as our Firearms Act technically allows. ...and I do!

The next problem is finding a donor barrel that I could get two short rifled 16-bore sleeves out of. New or vintage, don't really care, but the rifling would need to be "pukka", meaning wide grooves and relatively tall, narrow lands for round-ball, with a twist-rate in the order of 30 to 60 inches. In Australia! More rocking-horse sh!t needing to be sought!

Anyway, the donor hardware is in my gunsafe, so Step 1 is done. I have had the brass 16-bore cases forever, but not yet cut to 2 inches for the 16-bore short cartridge (to further circumvent Police accusations of a cut-down shotgun).
Anyway, this is already further than I manage to get on most of my conceptual projects!

Rest assured I'll post progress here if this project ever bubbles to the surface!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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I think "competition" is being used to accept lessor standards Perhaps we should take "competition" out of the discussion.

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Nope. Because that is what Marrakai and I are talking about


No one is shooting a tiger off an elephant's back anymore.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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But at last:

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A 16-bore hammer side by side shotgun could provide a cheap donor source for a smoothbore Howdah pistol

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Finally we have arrived at my own personal concept of a modern howdah pistol build, so its time to add my two cents worth. Except mine would definitely need rifling!

Several years ago I went down this rabbit-hole with a view to making a version of the SxS 16-bore hammergun that could be used in our Big Game Rifle competition for the Howdah Pistol event.
A couple of important pre-requisites were NO TOP-LEVER, and percussion-style fences. The problem with using a vintage 12-bore hammer-gun as a donor is that back-action locks cannot be contoured down into the pistol grip, as mentioned above: they are all too straight.
Unfortunately as the SxS shotgun evolved, the top-lever was universally adopted BEFORE the back-action lock was replaced by the bar-action lock, so finding a donor hammer-gun that had bar-action locks with either a Jones underlever or a side-lever was like looking for rocking-horse sh!t!

Anyway, long story short, I finally found one and made the acquisition. According to my gunsmith, I can do everything required except shortening the barrels. That requires changing the firearm class from A (shotgun) to H (handgun) in the NT, and this can only be done legally by a licenced armourer or gunsmith. Difficulties are predicted if I want it to remain an antique (pre-1900 manufactured action) as our Firearms Act technically allows. ...and I do!

The next problem is finding a donor barrel that I could get two short rifled 16-bore sleeves out of. New or vintage, don't really care, but the rifling would need to be "pukka", meaning wide grooves and relatively tall, narrow lands for round-ball, with a twist-rate in the order of 30 to 60 inches. In Australia! More rocking-horse sh!t needing to be sought!

Anyway, the donor hardware is in my gunsafe, so Step 1 is done.


I have had the brass 16-bore cases forever, but not yet cut to 2 inches for the 16-bore short cartridge (to further circumvent Police accusations of a cut-down shotgun).
Anyway, this is already further than I manage to get on most of my conceptual projects!

Rest assured I'll post progress here if this project ever bubbles to the surface!

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Marrakais, so you have both the hens teeth 16-bore action and the two 16-bore rifled barrels to use. Wow.

Can you post photos of the 16-bore shotgun and action please? Thanks.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I "get" that there are better guns available today for whatever the Howdah can do. Hell there are better guns available for what a Double Rifle can do;

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Im not sure there are any other options. My choice is to continue the search for an original, and enjoy the Pedersoli ML and 45/410 for what they are...

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Yes. But there are also other optionz, all discussed probably several times.

Enjoy your existing Pedersolis. Start a new thread, show photos and maybe some videos of shooting them.

How well do they regulate? How accurate? At whatever range suitable.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Sorry John, you misunderstand, I only have the 12-bore side-lever bar-action hammergun with percussion fences and damascus barrels,
ready to accept 10-inch 16-bore rifled inserts. If I already had the inserts, or the donor barrel from which to make them,
this project would definitely have moved from the back-burner to the front!

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Thanks. A problem with a 12-bore as the base is the size of it. But if it works. And 16-bore in a 12, why not.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bar-action hammergun here. Easy to make a pistol-grip stock curving downwards behind the trigger-guard.

Back-action hammergun here. Virtually impossible to make a properly proportioned pistol grip behind those locks, and still reach the triggers with your finger!

So while a vintage original probably has to be back-actioned (with curved lock-plates) to look the part, a modern conversion of a hammer shotgun pretty-much cannot be back-actioned.

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Thanks for that. A dream of mine has always been to create a Nitro-Wiki with members creating posts, comments, illustrations and images, explaining terms and concepts, brands, techniques. Thought about it 18years ago, one can't proceed too quickly ...

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The top lever on a Howdah pistol. Yes maybe that's acreadin for the "saw grip"? I've never shot a sawn off shotgun with a pistol grip. So don't know how much a top lever might be a problem?

I agree aside or bottom lever is so much more desirable.



BTW does anyone know anyone with a Pedersoli Howdah in Australia? Especially the breech loading versions. It would be great to handle one first, say at the International BG, BB Shoot in Darwin later in the year.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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"I've never shot a sawn off shotgun with a pistol grip. So don't know how much a top lever might be a problem?"

I have shot them with top and side levers in 12 guage and the levers do have a fairly nasty bite.

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What about 45-70 as a howdah cartridge? Id love something more traditional; but 45-70 has the virtue of being available. It also seems to have the necessary power for anything Id likely (or fantasy) ever be using it.

I may have found an donor action. It has back action locks and a side lever.

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I thought about whether a Aikal side by side DR in 45/70 could be (early) cut into a hissy pistol. I have one, a full rifle of course. If the barrels were cut in front of the forend, curved pistol grip stock made it might work. The barrels would need to be separated and regulated. But I think it would be quite heavy. The barrels and action are quite hefty.

The .577 Snider shot a 480 gr bullet with 70 grains of BP. The .45/70 original load wa 70 grs BP and a 400 or 350 gr bullet.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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These may be of interest



4 cartridge pistols
The only real Howdah is 3rd down, a .577 Snider by Wilkinson
The bottom is a .500



The bottom one here is what you get by "bodging" a shotgun
it is a 16 bore pinfire, I knew what it was and it was very cheap!!
I have seen one for sale in the UK somee years ago that the deealer swore was real!

the other is a Belgian rifled 16 bore pinfire, long heavy barrel, AFAIK not modified
Also cheap so I had to have it

My opinions on real Howdah pistols is known to some of you but whatever they are they are definitely interesting an historical part of the gunmaker's art

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Nice collection.

How did you keep your handguns in the UK? Antiques?

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Regarding what to chamber a custom built Howdah pistol?

I still think a .577 Snider is the way to go.

If original brass is hard to get, I shared a video of someone reloading shotgun shells cut shorter for a .577 Snider rifle. Lead round balls from memory. If this is possible, no problems getting reloading supplies for a Howdah pistol.

Assuming suitable barrels can be sourced, chambers cut etc.

Why not? Stick with the original.

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=24zy58N3Pu8

Making Cheap And Easy 577 Snider Ammunition
53K views · 3 months ago
Everything Black Powder
81.1K

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=382163&an=0&page=0#Post382163

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.24-bore shotshell. .60 calibre conicals and balls.m

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.

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Why not? Go for it. If a suitable donor 12-bore is available. Sounds a possible solution to me.

Can the insert barrels be adjusted for point of impact? i.e. for a form of regulation?

I think plus or minus seven inches is what I'd go for. Would a 1:18 twist rate work?


https://chaszel.com/product/45-70-shotgun-adapters/


Using inserts to make an insert double rifle. No reason a Howdah length 12-bore couldn't work. Shooter loaded trapdoor level .45/70 loads.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread...-rifle.3749835/

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/03/24 01:48 AM)

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Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.

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Why not? If a suitable donor 12-bore is available. Sounds a possible solution to me.

Can the insert barrels be adjusted for point of impact? i.e. for a form of regulation?

I think plus or minus seven inches is what I'd go for.

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Yes Im sure they can be at least somewhat regulated if made permanent. Years ago there ware inserts made for the Bakail Coach guns that used shims at the muzzle. My thoughts would be to fit the shim until reasonably regulated then have them fixed in place.

On the off chance they cant be regulated or the gunsmith isnt willing, then Im not terribly upset; afterall this is 90% a fantasy toy. If it "hits" a Tiger size target at say arms length I would say that is Howdah "MOT" (minute of a Tiger)????

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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Im only leaning towards 45-70 because I have a set of 12ga inserts in 45-70. They can make them permanent or can be removed. I would want them fixed.

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Can the insert barrels be adjusted for point of impact? i.e. for a form of regulation?

I think plus or minus seven inches is what I'd go for.

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Yes Im sure they can be at least somewhat regulated if made permanent. Years ago there ware inserts made for the Bakail Coach guns that used shims at the muzzle. My thoughts would be to fit the shim until reasonably regulated then have them fixed in place.

On the off chance they cant be regulated or the gunsmith isnt willing, then Im not terribly upset; afterall this is 90% a fantasy toy. If it "hits" a Tiger size target at say arms length I would say that is Howdah "MOT" (minute of a Tiger)????

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I'd hope for reasonable accuracy, say a 12 inch circular steel target at say 10 yards. With both barrels. Hopefully better but ...

Now to source a suitable hammer donor shotgun. Barrel inserts of some description and suitable calibre/bore.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/03/24 01:55 AM)

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I'd hope for reasonable accuracy, say a 12 inch circular steel target at say 10 yards. With both barrels. Hopefully better but ...

Now to source a suitable hammer donor shotgun. Barrel inserts of some description and suitable calibre/bore.

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I would think thats possible, either with shims or by grinding at the muzzle....

As I recall Sabatti regulates their DRs by "grinding" the rifiling at the muzzle. I had a 9.3x74R Sabatti that shot fine. I never noticed anything unusual

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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